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My son's behaviour at school disappoints and embarasses me, and makes me feel guilty

88 replies

MerryMarigold · 08/11/2011 16:37

I feel completely in at the deep end here. He is my first child, so I'm learning about school, as well as kids in general and him specifically. He's in Yr 1 and we had a hard year last year. He found it very hard socially, academically and behaviourally. He got quite stressed and so did I. I thought it may be the teacher, but this year the teacher is great and we have the same issues, so...it is him. And it is me. What can I do to help him? I want it to change this year.

Let me give you some facts.

  • He can't sit still at carpet time
  • He's often missing playtime as a punishment (for fighting or not finishing work)
  • He finds it hard to focus/ concentrate unless it is playing lego/ drawing
  • He messes about a lot - silly behaviour
  • His behaviour at school is worse than at home and it is also worse at home during term time than in the holidays

It was the school assembly today and I was mortified to see him just messing about in the back row with his friend and not really joining in the song properly. The children looked so sweet singing their hearts out, but he wasn't one of them. He and his 'friend' were the ONLY 2 messing about.

Anyone have thoughts as to why his behaviour is bad? And how to correct it. At home and ant strategies school could use. We are not afraid of discipline, but it doesn't seem to work that well on him (he gets unhappy and behaves worse if gets it a lot).

It's parents' evening tomorrow. I'd like to go in with some ideas! And I will also update you on what the teacher thinks when she tells me.

OP posts:
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VonHerrBurton · 11/11/2011 10:03

I agree with you, Indigo. What's worse - hoping it will all go away by Y3, but in reality you are constantly being spoken to by teachers, he may be losing friends as his peers don't 'get him', worrying about him socially, OR simply go and see the right people now, get the ball rolling.

Getting to anywhere near Y3 with un-diagnosed ADHD or whatever means he could potentially miss out on so much help, help for the family and teachers also. The thing is, it's so easy to say 'he sounds like a normal boy' and for OP to think yes, I feel better now, let's just leave it be.

I guess it depends if you're a grasp the nettle type of person - but it's obviously worrying OP, even after a reasonably positive parents eve.

MerryMarigold · 11/11/2011 10:42

Rhubarab. I agree PSA is probably best place to start. I am not a 'grasp the nettle' type of person at all, BUT I can go to extremes. So, doing nothing for a year and then suddenly getting GP's involved etc. His teacher is extremely experienced (approaching retirement) and if she is not saying anything (yet), I will wait till she knows him a bit better. It's only been half a term and she works p/t. I think (knowing myself) the best course of action for me is to start ball rolling with PSA and commit myself to speaking to teacher in January. It's only half a term of difference, but I don't want to 'commit' myself to seeing something wrong with him, when maybe he is fine, but just different from many of the boys in his class (he is in an abnormally bright class boys-wise where the 'top' 5 or 6 are all boys and averages out that the boys are way ahead of the girls).

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TheRhubarb · 11/11/2011 12:01

No Merry I'm in Wiltshire.

I think it's dangerous to start putting ideas into parents' heads about what conditions their children may or may not have. I remember being told on Mumsnet that my ds most definitely had coeliac when he actually just had toddler diarhoerra, but for a while I was planning to cut out all gluten from his diet.

We don't know Merry's ds and whilst some of his symptoms might be similar to someone with ADHD, others might not be. After all if I posted about my ds's attachment issues and the way he lines up cans and tins in the supermarket, someone would undoubtedly say that he has autism. Yet I would have failed to mention his good communication skills and ability to socialise and express himself with ease.

I think it's far better to suggest that Merry explore all avenues, which is what I realise many of you are saying it's just that ADHD has been mentioned a few times by different people and it's easy to start then looking out specifically for the traits that match ADHD whilst ignoring the ones which don't.

This little boy is only in Yr1 and school is still a big deal and very new. Lots of little boys cannot sit still in assembly. I am an ex-TA and I worked with children who had special needs. I can honestly say that your boy does appear to be normal. Yr1s find it hard to still still and concentrate, especially boys. Often younger boys will make one friend (usually older but not always) who they absolutely adore and will stick to like glue. My ds was just the same, I too was horrified to see him messing about in assembly and I know from what teachers have said that he could be immature at times and would chat in class and not really put enough effort into his work. He also had a friend called Daniel who he would go on and on about. My ds is also sensitive, like yours and finds it hard to be separated from me. He's very affectionate and emotional.

I can't find out if you have spoken to his teacher yet or not, but a quiet word about how he is performing in relation to the others is a good move. If the school had any concerns they would contact you and trust me, spotting those telltale signs of ADHD or Aspergers or Autism is a lot better now than it used to be and many teachers receive training in this area. In fact if your class has a TA, he/she may well have completed a training course for assisting children with special needs so they might be a good person to approach with any concerns too.

But from what you have said just on this thread, nothing strikes me as out of the ordinary. You say he is well behaved at home, that he is empathetic and conversational and he is capable of making friends. I think the mistake you are doing is to compare him to your other son. Every child is different and you must not think that because one child behaved in a certain way by a certain age that these are the targets your other children must reach. Boys are immature compared to girls and some boys take a longer time to grow up than others. My ds is now 7, nearly 8 and he still puts on a baby voice at times and will behave like a 3yr old but that's because he still craves the security that being a baby gave him and struggles to accept this growing older business.

If you take him the the GP he will most likely be referred to the children's mental health team and the waiting list could run into 6 months. At the age your ds is, it will be very hard for them to assess him properly. I honestly think that if the school are happy with his progress and you know he can behave at home and be socially interactive, then I would keep up the praise and rewards for being good and STOP COMPARING. Enjoy him.

becstarsky · 11/11/2011 12:27

Agree about internet diagnosis, Rhubarb. A consultant level child psychiatrist with years of experience would never dream of declaring a child 'normal' or otherwise from having read something about them on the internet, so we really shouldn't either.

Your DS and his lining up cans reminds me - My DMil tells me that DH used to line up all his toy cars - they had to be exactly equidistant and parallel apparently or he couldn't go to sleep and he would throw tantrums if someone moved them so they weren't in the right order, or the wrong colour car was next to the wrong colour. He could have been investigated for autism or OCD if she'd been a mumsnetter in 1975! But there was no Mumsnet and she felt that it was just 'him'. It turns out the diagnosis was that... he was a future graphic designer with a keen eye for pattern. He still throws tantrums when he sees an unpleasant colour juxtaposition ("What were they THINKING?" he storms...) He has been known to rehang the clothes in my wardrobe so that the colours look better when I open the door! It's weird, but it's not an illness, it's an integral part of his artistic talent which he uses to earn a living.

And of course other times people say 'it's normal' when they just can't possibly know that it is. We all see things through the prism of our own experience I guess. Best not to diagnose either way.

TheRhubarb · 11/11/2011 12:39

We are all on the autistic spectrum in one way or another. Some people have OCD which is also a symptom of autism, some will hear a snatch of a song and be compelled to finish it, some line up books or cans in height order etc etc. It is all part and parcel of who we are and I do think society are too keen to issue out labels so that people can be packaged and boxed up safely. But life doesn't work like that and for a child so young, these behaviours are all the kinds of behaviours that are apparent in children of all ages. Give him another couple of years in which to mature. You may find that he still has quirks (and the more intelligent and/or creative i.e. sensitive the child the greater the number of quirks) but they add to his overall character and as a society we should not be telling him that these behaviours are not normal or trying to suppress them. As becstarsky rightly said, her dh could well have been diagnosed and that diagnosis might have affected his entire life.

As well as children suffering from not being diagnosed soon enough, we also need to be carefully of wrongly diagnosing children.

VonHerrBurton · 11/11/2011 13:25

Rhubarb - You're spot on, of course. I think people are just aware of how concerned Merry seems, even after a parents eve that was OK, she's still worried. We none of us are expert development paediatricians (correct me if I'm wrong!) and are just offering our opinions, some of which are from personal experience, others (mine included) come from seeing a friend go through years of denial then struggle like hell to acheive anything to help her ds 'you should have come to us earlier' bla bla...

The advice, as far as I can see, just offers a range of options for the OP to consider. If I was her at this moment, I think I would feel a bit more empowered as to what to do if she gets the 'quiet chat' from the teacher/senco or whoever, and it wouldn't be a massive panic as to where to go, what to do.

MerryMarigold · 11/11/2011 13:49

Thanks. I never compare the boys openly of course. It's just that as ds2 grows older I see how much easier it is for him to learn. I told him (ds2) a couple of times how to put pants on and he could do it. 3 years on ds1 still finds this hard - back to front, 2 legs in one hole. I actually find easier to love ds1, to be honest, as he is so endearing, so I hope no-one thinks I feel impatient with him or struggle to love him. What does worry me more is that he is obviously anxious about school/ friendships, early waking, behaviour worse in term time etc. and that he finds it a lot harder to learn things which others learn easily.

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BigKahuna · 11/11/2011 14:02

Merry, have only skim-read, but I really believe you should go with your gut instinct. If you have a 'feeling' that his behaviour isn't (and I hate to use this word, but you know what I mean) 'normal' than follow it up. See your GP and ask for a referral to a Paediatrician.

I really wish I had listened to my instincts earlier. My DS has got a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome (with strong ADHD traits, although no formal diagnosis of that). Now that he as a diagnosis and a Statement he is finally getting the understanding and support he needs, and is no longer labelled as 'the naughty boy'. I only wish i had listened to my gut and got him the help earlier. A lot of damage was done (although not irreversible) by his first disastrous years at school.

Goes without saying - I am not diagnosing your child over the internet! He may well just be a 'young for his age' little boy who is finding the structure of school hard to adjust to (and he wouldn't be the first). But I do think iti s worth investigating,

TheRhubarb · 11/11/2011 14:55

I don't think her ds is naughty though, he is just maturing at a slower rate. I could be wrong and if she is concerned I would also strongly suggest speaking to someone about it as you should never ignore a gut instinct but here is my boy:

At the age of 7 he still comes down on occasion with his jumper on back to front and still struggles with his zip on his coat. dd was an early dresser, great sleeper, fantastic eater and so on, but ds still wakes up at night here is my blog on the bedtime monsters and is still very much a mummy's boy. I swear that he would let me feed him if he could get away with it. He's naturally a bit lazy I fear. He hates school with a passion and will often get 'worry belly'. In fact at this last school I spent a week collecting him from school as they thought he had a problem with his tummy, the GP examined him and found nothing. Now I could have got paranoid about that as he was pretty convincingly in pain, but now I realise that it is a symptom of anxiety.

He is sensitive and nervous, shy to make friends at first but then a very loyal friend when he does. He can be silly and mess around in class and during assembly. I think he just wants to be a kid and is rebelling against rules and leadership.

He's overly emotional at times, always telling me how much he loves me, snuggling up, wanting to be my baby all over again. I think he craves security and since I started the Triple P and put the positive parenting plan into action, he's a lot more confident. The night issues are less and he'll now play in a room by himself without needing to check on me (I really should update my blog). He's also a year ahead at school for reading and comprehension and has a very active imagination.

It's so easy to compare and I know that at the same age, he is nothing like his sister. But if this sounds like your boy, then take heart from all the various advice I've sought which implies that although there might be a few issues we need to deal with, ds has no other problem and is actually growing up just fine.

Sometimes I think we need to throw away the growth charts and indicators and just get on with the business of enjoying our children Smile

MerryMarigold · 11/11/2011 16:51

Thanks for writing about your ds1 Rhubarb. It helps Smile. Yes, we get anxiety tummy aches too (always in term time Hmm), but I know they are just that as I had them a lot too. At least your ds has a good friend(s) and is ahead academically. That must be a great comfort to him, as they do compare within their peer group too (a lot).

"Sometimes I think we need to throw away the growth charts and indicators and just get on with the business of enjoying our children"

That's always been my philosophy - and I had a ball for his first 4 years! - but now it seems to be affecting him/ his school life.

I'm glad my dd is just like ds1 because it helps me to know it's not laziness (unless you're born that way!), and not that he's a 'mummy's boy' (in which case she's very much a mummy's girl!), but something to do with the way they ARE. It also helps me know that ds2 isn't just different from them because he's a younger sibling - as she's younger too.

I'm glad I have a ds2 who is different because it helps me know it's not my parenting!!! I do need to put the Triple P into practise more and dh DEFINITELY does. We did it in a bit of a rushed way where I did it, so think I need to get the DVD's from the library and do it again at home!

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ragged · 11/11/2011 17:08

I empathise with a lot of what you are experiencing, Marigold.
I am pretty sure that DS2 is at the ADHD end of normal, or the normal end of ADHD. Borderline enough that I imagine I'll never pursue it. Because maybe he is "just immature" & only time will tell. DS does focus extremely well lots of the time, btw, but then he has spells when he's a Manic Maniac & can't concentrate for toffee.

What really helped me was reading The Explosive Child, which may not seem to apply to you if your DS not explosive, but the whole ethos of the book is about best coping methods for awkward behaviour & not thinking that you actually need to fully understand what's going on underneath.
It's a good read for changing one's mindset, if nothing else, away from blaming anybody. The premise of the book is that children will do well if they can, so if your child is struggling that suggests he doesn't have the skills he needs & you can do lots to improve that (without actually knowing why he lacks those skills compared to what his peers are like).

tabulahrasa · 11/11/2011 17:17

Rhubarb - I would be much much more worried about a child going undiagnosed or being diagnosed late, after it's having a detrimental effect on them from going unsupported than I ever would be about a misdiagnosis.

The assessment process for developmental disorders is very thorough and if there's any doubt at all includes time to mature before reassessing - children who have massively obvious developmental issues remain undiagnosed for years if they don't fit the diagnostic criteria, even if it's only slightly.

I never understand why people wouldn't have a child assessed if they suspect there may be an issue, how does it do any harm at all to get it checked out? If there's no issue there, they'll very quickly be told that.

Diagnosing children is not about labelling children who do things a bit out of the norm, it's about being able to provide support for a child experiencing difficulties.

Again, I have no clue how MerryMarigold's DS is as I don't know him, just from the things on this thread - I'd be thinking ADHD might be a possibility, but of course he may well mature massively over the next couple of years and all's fine.

spiderpig8 · 11/11/2011 18:00

Well I'm no expert but I think you either have ADHD or you don't.Your DS CAN concentrate on things that interest him, and he behaves better at home than school.
I agree with others that say his behaviour is not by any means uncommon for a 5 yr old boy.

levantine · 11/11/2011 18:17

My DS is a year younger, so in reception, but sounds exactly like yours. We had our first parents evening last week, which was a replica of every nursery evening we had ever been to - DS still hits people, wets himself, won't listen etc

I was really upset by this, as that sounded to me like the behaviour of quite a disturbed child - what is normal at 2 ish should surely be gone by now (not saying your DS is disturbed at all)

We stopped telling DS off, stopped shouting and nagging and praise him to the roof for every little thing. I thought we had been doing that before, but we hadn't really been putting much thought into how we handled him if I'm really honest or what the impact must have been on his confidence. Anyway a week on and his behaviour is much much improved

NotnOtter · 11/11/2011 18:18

Sorry - feeling a bit poorly but have read most of thread and wanted to give some advice

I see you mention sleep and early waking. I have read a lot of research on sleep and ADD type behaviours. Can you work on that and see if he improves at all?? How much time does he spend watching TV or on computer games as again I found this impacted on one of my dcs attention span....

You sound very caring I do hope you manage to resolve rhis

AmberLeaf · 11/11/2011 18:19

We are all on the autistic spectrum in one way or another

Er no we are not

bbcessex · 11/11/2011 18:25

Children with ADHD can absolutely have calm, settled periods. It's a misconception that they are 'hyper' all the time.

Your son sounds like a lovely, lively little boy Marigold. He is very very young... I would be tempted to Give it a while and see how it goes.

My DS sounded just like yours... He was diagnosed with ADHD aged 9.. No medication given. But he's 12 now, and a much calmer character, so we no longer think the diagnosis was correct (although we did at the time).

With hindsight, i wish i'd focussed on DS's postive traits more, rather than despairing and seeking conformity. Energy, wit, exuberance and natural comedy are what your DS seems to have an abundance of. Traits worth keeping ... They'll stand him in good stead when he's older!!

MerryMarigold · 11/11/2011 20:11

Hi NotanOtter (why did you change your name? Was it ages ago?!). Any info on sleep be much appreciated. He doesn't use computer a huge amount yet and doesn't watch a lot of TV in the week as he is out so much of the day, but we do have it on a lot on Sat mornings and Sun afternoons. He used to watch a lot more when he was at Nursery yet his sleep was a lot better than now. When he is more 'hyper'(in his way that is stressed/ over tired) he can't even watch TV and tends to go to his room and play lego/ blocks or 'organise' everything in his room into lines and symmetrical patterns! It seems to be his 'wind-down' thing to do.

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MerryMarigold · 11/11/2011 20:15

bbcessex. Not sure about the wit part, but he has plenty of energy and exuberance and joy and excitability! Yes, I do need to focus more on that (his Reception TA said to me: he must be the happiest child on the planet in the early days of YR)...though it got rather lost after January last year.

One thing I noticed about him today is that he has a very low awareness of personal space with his friends. He is really 'in your face' with them, lots of hands near their faces and touching etc.

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NotnOtter · 11/11/2011 22:12

amberleaf errrr 'yes we are'

catawampus · 11/11/2011 22:16

Are we, or aren't we?

Tis an interesting debate.

NotnOtter · 11/11/2011 22:23

Merry - he does sound a lot like one of my DS and the TV thing does not sound like an issue to me...

Errrr i would just start being a bit more 'on the case' really. Stopping the slightly wild - in your face behavious - move down to his level - hold him still - gain eye contact - get him to repeat why you are stopping him to be sure he 'gets it' and processes it etc etc etc whilst on the other hand working hard on the positives . Commeneding calm behaviours - comment to dp or ( i even use fake phonecalls when the child is in earshot) - 'have you heard how hard DS has been working - he's been so quiet and calm we are all so proud of him' sort of thing. Include the teacher in your praise ie when dp comes in ' I could tell how pleased mrs doodaa was with DS today - he has played so nicely with no fighting'

it all feels a bit fake and faux but it soon makes them feel good and then the discipline works so much better as they feel they've let themselves down....

The sleep thing i do think is worth working on - again all the simple stuff - calm calm calm in the hour before bed - not too many silly rituals ( our ds with ishoos was a horror for them 19,000 toys lined up in duvet. duvet rolled up just so...no ticking things in room ....' try to get it down to simple one toy etc - less fuss

Sleep breeds sleep so once it's started try to forgo nights away or changes for a while

I often find food a good sleep inducer - milky drinks or rice pudding for supper - just for a while.

All this sounds like hard work for a lovely laid back mum but in the end you are hoping to make his life calmer and happier and make him well liked amoungst his peers so it will all be worth it imo

My children following the ds with the problems were brought up very differently and have been much calmer boys hth

AmberLeaf · 11/11/2011 22:33

Notanotter No we are not

When people say crap like that they are talking about 'traits'

Autism is when those 'traits' are so great they are an impairment.

That is not the case for the majority of people with those 'traits'

Its like saying 'Im a bit blind' when in reality you're just slightly shortsighted and couldnt possibly have a clue what life is like for a blind person.

'we are all a little bit autistic' is extremely patronising and IMO is just about downplaying autism. trying to say as if its something that everyone has to deal with, bollocks is it.

catawampus · 11/11/2011 22:45

I'm not wanting to hijack, or be provocative in any way, but that interpretation of the autism spectrum does mean that there is a cut-off point - a line, with people either side.

I'm not just speculating idly, either - it affects me directly.

AmberLeaf · 11/11/2011 22:54

catawampus

If you are on the spectrum...you are on the spectrum.

Having 'traits' or types of behaviors does not mean you are on the spectrum.