I'm so angry I'm shaking but don't know what to do

[muffinflop]

I had a phone call from school this morning asking if I could pop in when I had time because DD had had a 'little accident'. They said it wasn't anything to worry about but DD was crying and wanted to come home so could I go down and then decide if she should come home or not.

So, obviously, I went straight down. I found DD in the office shaking, pale and sobbing so much she was heaving and the TA was holding a sick bucket just in case It turns out she was attacked by a boy in her class. He pulled her chair backwards making her fall off, she hit her head on the floor and then he got on top of her and was pulling her hair, shouting in her face and kicking her legs. And all because the teacher said she'd drawn a lovely picture. I was told of this away from DD but could hear her in the next room crying for me the whole time so I said I couldn't deal with it now and there was no way I was leaving DD there today.

I don't know how the boy has been dealt with but I did pass his mum on the way out and she kind of looked at DD crying and said 'oh dear is she not well' but I was so f*cking angry I just walked away from her (I know I would have cried if I'd stopped to say anything).

I've just phoned them back to tell them I want a meeting with the teacher and the HT this afternoon and they were very understanding and said they'd see me after school pick up. But what do I say? I'm so angry I'm shaking. I don't deal with confrontation well but there's no way I'm letting this go seeing the state of DD

It is unreasonable to think that the school can prevent another child pulling a child's chair unless you ban all chairs.

It is unreasonable to expect that a school can prevent one child attacking another child if it is the offender's first offence.

Even if the offender has been aggressive before, the school can at best try to put procedures in place to reduce the risk of the offender doing any harm, but the school cannot guarantee this.

For private schools it may be easier but for a state school it is very difficult to remove a child permanently from school due to violent behaviour.

We have a number of children with violent behaviour towards other children as well as adults. This is very challenging and often we end up dealing with the consequences. I have no doubt that the large class sizes, lack of respect for teachers/adults in general, lack of parental involvement are major causes, but there is very little a teacher can do about these things.

AICM,

Schools definitely have the powers to deal with such attacks - if the school that you are teaching in says that they do not, they are not aware of the law.

A reasonable and proportionate physical response e.g. restraint is allowed. Training is available for all school staff in appropriate restraint techniques.
Internal exclusion is allowed.
Supervision by a member of staff is allowed.
Interventions designed to address the cause of the behaviour are not only allowed, I would say that they are absolutely expected...
etc etc (there is no universal 'blanket answer' that will work for every child in everh case, but there is certainly every expectation that further attacks could be prevented).

It may not have been possible fo foresee in this case, as the children in Reception have only been in school a few weeks and there may have been no signs 'leading up' to this and /or a previous pre-school setting (if any) may not have passed relevant information on.

But it is certainly possible to avoid it happening again, and as a parent and a teacher, that is what i would be looking for.

in isolated incidences, you are right dikker. but where there has been a history of extreme behavioural issues, there is a lot that can and should be done.

in the early years, this is especially so. good support and intervention now and the pupil and his peers might find the rest of their 15 years together in the classroom much easier.

So sorry - it sounds terribly upsetting. I hope your dd recovers very quickly - physically and her confidence.

First off, I really wouldn't take issue with what was said on the phone - they were just giving the slightest hint as to why you needed to come in. If they said 'been attacked' you might have turned up mob handed (some parents would, they really would), if they had given no details your imagination would have run riot, if they had said 'a bit unwell' you might have said 'I'm at work. look after her til I can come' (again some parents would). A more neutral 'incident in which your dd has been hurt - not seriously, but she's upset' might have been better - but the school were probably upset too.

Unfortunately no school can gurantee that these things won't ever happen. Go in and listen to what they have to say - and then if they have not already answered the questions that TethersEnd suggests, ask them. Hopefully they will take effective action wrt to the boy - and it does seem as if they called his parents. The Mum may well be utterly mortified, embarrassed and upset about it too - she was at least the kind of Mum who sympathised when she saw your crying dd, not realising what had happened..

I hope your dd sleeps well tonight, poor thing.

Tethersend

How would you stop this child doing this again?
How would you deal with this?

Teacher with2
What EXACTLY would you do to guarantee 100% it would be IMPOSSIBLE for this child to EVER another hurt child?

AICM I'm sure you are aware that there is no way to guarantee that this child won't do this again but there are a number of things schools can do to reduce the risk. I'm sure the school will be looking closely at the child's behaviour and involving outside agencies even possible exclusion if this isn't an isolated outburst/attack.

I see I have come to this late... the attack sounds awful , hope the meeting went ok and you got some answers / apologies

It's not about 'stopping this child doing it again'. It's about putting measures in place which prevent him from doing so- a tiny difference, but an important one.

Many strategies have already been mentioned:

-behaviour management training
-physical handling training
-supervision
-Personal handling plan (PHP)
-behaviour plan
-risk assessments
-funding for support applied for

Coupled with measures which directly address the child's behaviour:

-behaviour support team
-therapeutic intervention
-sanctions and rewards

The measures put in place would depend on the needs of the child with violent behaviour. Children behave violently for a number of reasons; there is no one-size-fits-all solution. I would be surprised at a teacher who thought differently.

I am also interested in how you would deal with this if I can ask the question back to you?

Nothing will give you a cast iron guarantee that he will not hurt another child, but the school is able -and indeed, obliged to- put reasonable measures in place to stop this happening. The child's behaviour is now a foreseeable risk.

Inidentally, the only way to guarantee that your child will not be injured by another at school is to educate them in isolation.

AICM, Tethersend has put it much more eloquently than I would, so I'll just say that I agree with her

In your original post, you said that 'schools no longer have the powers to deal with such attacks' - and that was what I was responding to.

To raise the bar from 'having powers to deal with them' to 'making it 100% impossible for this child to ever harm another' is rather a large step...

And I would ask you in response, since you clearly believe that there was a point when powers to deal with such attacks WERE available (but have now been withdrawn) - what were those powers? And did those powers make it 100% impossible for the child to ever harm another??

I don't think the school have acted badly so far - if someone called me and told me what had happened to your DD about my DS I would be in a blind panic! At least "a little accident but you need to come in" would delay the panic!

DS has been deliberately thumped a couple if times already (he is 4 too) but in my opinion your DD was physically assaulted. You can't avoid your child being injured at school but this is different. the boy who did this needs help and it sounds like it would be unwise for him to be left unsupervised until something has been done to deal with his behaviour

I hope your meeting goes well - I would just say that you need to align yourself with the school rather than against and make very clear that this boy needs serious help and the children need to be protected from him until he does

Your first post says you disagree with me when I said the school can't stop this happening again . Your second post seems to agree with me.

Some have said that they would what to know what the school will to make sure this can't happen again, I'm making the point that with the best will in the world no school can give this guarentee.

I said that the school could 'avoid' this happening again (as in make many reasonable adjustments and put many things in place that prevent him from having the opportunity to do it again, as per tether's post)- sorry, I should have been more precise in my wording.

The main thrust of my post, as you realise, is that schools do have, and should use, the powers that they have to address the issue, and am really surprised that you, as a teacher, believe that schools do not have any powers to use.

I don't think anyone is asking for guarantees though, AICM- the only person mentioning 100% guarantees was you. People are asking what steps the school will take to prevent this happening again.

"Your first post says you disagree with me when I said the school can't stop this happening again"

No, I said "[schools] can take reasonable and effective measures to stop this happening again."

I am genuinely interested as to how you would deal with a child's such as this boy's violent behaviour AICM?

*child's =child

Teacher with2
You say it's possible to stop this happening again. Are you sure that you can 100% stop a child from ever attacking another over the next few years?
Do you agree or disagree with me when I say the school can't give the guarantee some parents are asking for?
Please understand when I say I'm not trying to have an argument with you.

Hi all. What a nightmare this has turned in to. I went to school at pick up time...and the other mum was waiting for me. She was completely and utterly mortified and burst into tears as soon as I approached her. She was very apologetic and concerned about DD. She said her DS has NEVER done anything like this before and she had no idea where it came from. She'd bought DD a present from her DS to say sorry but I told her I'd rather her DS gave it to DD once things have settled down. Her DS is not going to be in school tomorrow (she has to take him during the day so the HT can speak to him again and she said there would be someone else in the meeting by she couldn't remember who they'd said).

When I got into the HT office he was there with DD's teacher, the TA and the deputy head. They were all very apologetic and I could see the teacher was upset that she hadn't 'got there fast enough'. Apparently she had told DD she could have a sticker for her picture and had walked away to get a sticker which is when the boy attacked her. They didn't tell me anything else about the boy so I'm not sure what they're planning on doing next. I said I wasn't happy for DD to go back in the classroom in the state she's been and they've agreed she should stay home with me tomorrow and that I can stay with her on monday for as long as she needs me to and we can review it after that depending on how she is.

She's been completely heartbroken today. My usual happy, sparky little girl has completely withdrawn into herself and keeps breaking down in tears. I think it's going to take a while to get her back to herself but am hoping school are going to be supportive.

I would mert with the parents to make sure they were aware and hopefully supportive.
Try to find any issues that are bothering him
try to identify ant triggers to this behaviour and as far as possible remove them
Tell that violent behaviour to others can not and will not be tolerated
Reward him for good behaviour
Have a plan in place to deal with incidents
Collect evidance that may support a statement
Deal with issues firmly and fairly as they arise
Not demonize the child and look for the worst
not give up and try to build a friendly and professional raport

In the past these have worked well for me but no guarantees.

(I hate sticker charts)

Tbh muffin it does seem the other parent is doing her best, as the school also.It seems everyone's heart is in the right place. I think I would be pleased at how everyone was treating this

Your poor dd. Lots of cuddles and maybe plan a special day tommorrow for her xxx

The school do seem genuinely mortified and willing to help

You need to build up DDs confidence
none of this was her fault
her teacher is there to protect her and if she is ever even slightly uncomfortable she should go to her
ensure the school keep them at a physical distance so if he did go for her again (which I'm sure is unlikely) the teacher would be able to step in
the teacher will be watching this boy and will not let this situation happen again

she sounds like she is in shock - lots of cuddles etc and a lovely day tomorrow. Maybe she could sleep in your bed tonight?

on monday just let her feed off your confidence that she is going to be ok

It is hard because she will use your reaction to decide on her own. Good luck!!

tethersend
Two people on page one want to know how the school will stop this from happening again.

Oh muffinflop :(

I do feel for you - I also have a four year old DD in reception and the littlest things make a huge difference so I can't imagine how terrified she must be. May I make a couple of suggestions:

(1) Does your DD have any friends in her year that can (with encouragement by parents) be her hand holding buddy in the playground and classroom while she gets her confidence back. DD has been scooped up by a girl in year 1 who walks round holding her hand for the last couple of days and it's really helped her feel more confident at lunchtimes. Also the girl in year 1 has been praised lavishly by the teachers for doing this so it's a win-win.
(2) Physically it'd be good to keep these two apart. Are they broken into groups? At our school while the whole of reception are technically together they are split into groups so some kids only ever see each other at lunchtime etc.
(3) Would you consider taking your DD to a martial arts class (aikido is good) to develop her physical confidence and help her manage herself (I am not insinuating she caused this is any way btw, but it's good for little people to learn to feel confident in themselves and how their body's move anyway). Perhaps the boy would also benefit from this - help him get a handle on his anger.

I hope the weekend goes okay and she gets back to her normal self soon. Kids can be bloody horrible sometimes :(

I agree roseflower. The other parent was visably upset as was DD's teacher. I do think they've handled it well but that won't stop me being upset and angry for DD . there isn't really anything else I can expect or do for now. I just hope this is the end of it and I can get DD back to herself over the weekend and next week. I just feel so sad for her

Muffinflop, the response of the other mum and the school sounds really encouraging. Hopefully this is just an awful one-off and your daughter will have all the help she needs to move on from this.