Sex Education for Primary School Age - Advice needed

[Jockette]

Hi, I am after some advice as I have a meeting coming up with my child primary school this month. I am concerned about the sex education and innapropriate use of naming intimate body parts at age 5. I have since removed my child from being involved in further sex ed lessons, but how can I show the school that I think 5, 6 and 7 is way to young for the kids to be learning information they don't need to be aware of at that age. What age do any of you think is appropriate for your child to be taught the breakdown of the female body part?

Hockey - where do you work? Penises don't become hard in Y2,3 or 4 in our school!
It arises in Y5/6.

Hehehehe couldn't resist it.

hockey - I'm not scaremongering, I'm telling the truth, that video is rated age appropriate for 7 year olds and whilst your school may not be using it till year 6 other schools are showing it at age 7 - I know this for a fact. and the op and any other parent ought to go into school to find out for themselves what their school is doing.
Incidentally even at year 6 I would not let my kids take part to watch that - I don't let them watch sexual content at home so I'm sure as hell not letting the school tell me they have to watch it at school.

Why should schools edit out a part of am anatomy drawing to save the face of parents who want to tell their kids a fictional account of sexual reproduction? You might as well ask them to edit out the whole thing because some people want to tell their kids babies come from the stork.

How is not mentioning a clitoris a fictional account of reproduction? i am not embarrassed about sex, nor about talking about it. Just so as i know, what part of a clitoris is used in reproduction? because as far as i was aware a clitoris is used purely for a female orgasm, not in making a baby. Maybe just maybe i dont want my kids to think that they can go and use their bodies for fun at an inappropriate age, and that by telling them you have sex to make a baby may stop them from doing anything before they are ready. Too many children, and lets face it thats what they are even when they teenagers, are having sex too young, and could this possibly be because they know too much? My children respect sex for a purpose and i think thats the right way to be, not to just look at something as though its unimportant. So as i have said before right now the clitoris has no purpose to my 8 year old r my 12 year old, if they ask what that bump is yes of course i would tell them, but why do they need to know, im just going to let them enjoy being a kid without female orgasm being involved right now

Himalaya - if a parent chooses to tell their child that the stork brought them until they are at an age to start reaching puberty that is their prerogative as a parent, it may not be what you would choose to do or even myself, but it's not our place or the schools to insist en masse that all children need to know lots of detail at an early age.
What if same parent that uses the stork story raises very responsible, polite respectful confident mature children who are not out shagging at 12, 13, 14 and go on to be responsible members of society.

Or another parent who believes that kids need this knowledge so they can make "informed choices" but doesn't parent, doesn't instill discipline, has no idea where there kids are at night and ends up with a pregnant teenage daughter.

The thing is you have your beliefs and how you bring up your children and I have mine and thats fine, the issue starts when it is taught in primary schools along with explicit videos.

Jobo84 and Shakira

Telling children (or letting them believe) that people only have sex because they want to have a baby is a fictional account. It is not a simplified or less detailed version, it is just not true.

I remember learning about sex and thinking - OMG that is disgusting and weird etc...my mum and dad must have done it twice, the Queen and Prince Phillip must have done it four times etc... but then I asked some more questions and got some honest answers.

Do you really tell your children po facedly that you've only ever had sex with their father, and only when you were trying to conceive, that it wasn't pleasant or enjoyable, but you got it over with because you wanted to have children. Or do you just not talk about it and let them think work out that is what must have happened (it makes logical sense, and kids are very logical...).

How do you talk about contraception, if people only ever have sex when they are TTC? How do you tell them that someone might want to touch them or be touched by them, and they can say no and they can tell other people (because logically it wouldn't happen because people only do that when they are TTC in the version you are leading them to believe).

You can tell children that sex is important, has consequences but is also fun.

Whatever age your children start having sex, they will do it because its fun. (You hare not you really hoping that your children don't have sex until the day they start TTC, surely?) You hope that when they start they will do it responsibly and when they are emotionally ready, and you hope they will talk to you about it, if they need information, or help working out conflicting feelings about this. But how can they talk to you about it if you have told them that sex is not something you do for fun?

Shakira - a parent has the right to tell a child any old nonsense, that the liver pumps blood, that nitrogen is used in respiration or that other races are inferior or whatever, that is their prerogative as a parent. But a child has a right to learn accurate, age appropriate information at school.

"But a child has a right to learn accurate, age appropriate information at school" and therein lies the crux of the matter, what is defined as "age appropriate" seems to be getting younger and younger and being decided by god knows who and no-one seems to care about the consequences. What if my school decided that images of bestaility were age appropriate - what then? Oh no correct that that would be fine because children have the right to know these things so they can decide for themselves and have a healthy sex life.

Children are all different and what is age appropriate for one may not be for another and only a parent can know what their child is ready for and that is why I object to various things being taught / shown in school.

Shakira - if it is age appropriate for children to be able to learn the scientific/proper names for male and female genitalia at 7, which I don't think anyone is arguing against, then it is age appropriate for them to learn all the names.

I don't know where bestiality comes into it.

If a parent thinks that it is ok to tell a child that babies are brought by the stork, I think the school has a duty to tell them the truth, don't you?

Himalaya - I think we are argueing very different points. I get your point that it is just another body part and it has a name - and whilst that is logical I and many others are not comfortable with schools teaching our kids about their sexuality at such an early age and feel it goes into to much depth.

It's not about not telling your kids the truth it's about telling them enough at the right age and choosing what is right for them to know at the age they ask it and no teacher can possibly know a class of 30 better than their parents.

My point about bestiality is that this whole thing hinges on what is and isn't inappropriate and that, like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder and if you thought it was appropriate for 9 year olds for example and you were a headmaster and decided to teach it in your school there wouldnt be a damn thing the parents could do about it.

Incidentally if a parent tells their child that santa brings their presents does the school have a duty to dispell that myth too?
We all lie or omit information to our children to a certain degree, why? not because we want to keep them ignorant but because they are children and have the maturity of children - not adults and there are some things they do not need to know at certain ages. I'm afraid I don't subscribe to the view that children need to know everything that we do, that comes with age and maturity to handle that knowledge.

By the way I am not prudish or po faced and yes I answer my childrens questions honestly with as much info as they need to know at that time / age. If they ask about sex - the same , however I do not feel the need to sit them down and show them a video showing explicitly how to penetrate a woman which is what is happening in primary schools, to be honest I doubt very much they would want to see it anyway.

shakira Living and Growing is a series of 15 minute programs that has been designed for the 7-11 age-group. Like most schools we use it through key stage 2 (and one short section in Year 2 at the end of summer when they are all 7 or a few weeks off it), and will use different programs in different year groups. The sex scene is designed for Year 6, and in the lesson plans that accompany it, it is designated as part of a Year 6 lesson. Maybe there are a few schools that do use that particular part for younger years, but we don't and we follow a programme that a large number of schools in London do which is fairly 'advanced' (I mean in the sense that we introduce puberty and reproduction at quite young ages) to meet the needs of our pupils.

but seriously, you are showin porn to the kids and thats ok? i remember one of the teachers in my school showed a similar video of a couple havin sex to yr 5s and the kids complained because they didnt want to watch it and he resined in the end.

seriously kids in a mixed room watchin pornoraphic imaery? some adults dont even find that sort of thin acceptable to watch themselves let alone let their kids watch it!

you aim to prevent teenae prenancy by normalisin sex? surely kids are onna say that looks like fun i want to try it? when they see people runnin around the room?

I would much rather, when my son reaches primary school, that he learns stuff that is accurate and factual and helpful in sex ed - including all of the proper names for everything (clitorii included!) than what we had - which was a film of a family playing naked volleyball on the beach.

It's a cartoon! Believe me there is nothing remotely sexy about it whatsoever.

I'm sorry hockey but I have to disagree, I have watched all the living and growing 15 minute videos and at each one such as "changes" "how a baby is made" "boy talk" etc had the appropriate age range next to it on the website the the one with the couple having sex was quite definately aimed at age 7 to 9. Your school sounds quite sensible, but as county councils are recommending the use of these materials over all other materials SOME schools are gonna say "hey it says 7 on this so it must be ok" and then show it to that age group.

and with regards to the age rating, I don't suppose you are aware that you are relying on Channel 4's definition of what is appropriate? Not the most conservative of channels are they? These videos have never been officially classified by the BBFC who determine ratings and if they were I doubt they would get less than a 12 rating.

I find it very disturbing that Channel 4 who seem to specialise in voyeurism and all manners of trashy programmes are responsible for determining what is appropriate for our children.

and nailak you've hit the nail on the head, normalising sex for kids / teenagers appears to be having the opposite to the desired effect, Teenage pregnancies have barely changed in 10 years, std rates are going through the roof as is the use of the morning after pill and abortions.

In the words of albert einstein - definition of insanity "repeating the same actions but expecting different results"

When will people wake up and realise that educating kids more and more (and explicitly) is not changing their attitudes or their behaviour. We treat them like adults, give them more info that most adults have and then shake our heads and wonder when they think they can behave like adults.

shakira -I agree that ideally parents should tell their kids this stuff, with school as more of a back-up and for the detailed biology. But if schools went as slowly as the most conservative parents then many kids just wouldn't find out at all (apart from on the playground, magazines, porn, the Internet etc..)

I'm sure you've heard of people from our parents generation who thought they were hemoraging when they started their period, or were absolutely petrified on theit wedding night. Plus kids even of this generation who think that wee comes from their vagina, that you can't get pregnant if you have sex standing up etc.., parents just don't always tell their kids what they need to know.

I really don't understand why 'sex feels nice when you are ready for it' is information to keep away from any child old enough to know about sex itself. It just seems like storing up trouble for yourself as a parent, that either they realise you've not been straight with them about this and don't see this as an area of honesty and/or they see it as forbidden fruit.

its not about forbidden fruit, its about societal norms and expectations, peer pressure, lookin cool, and bein tauht about respectin yourself and havin esteem for yourself which is oin to cut teen preanancies, nothin as simple as lets name the parts to demystify it or show sex so children have an expectation of what it should be like is oin to solve the problem.

Yes himalaya I hear what you are saying and no I dont want to go back to the 60's 70's etc and I always intended that i would be more open with my kids than my parents where, neither I am disputing that girls need to know about periods around about 8 and both sexes need to know about puberty. But on one hand people say that some kids are uninformed yet you only have to read threads on here to see that most parents do talk more openly to their kids these days.

However it seems to have gone to the other degree where anything goes for kids, where is the logic in showing 7 year olds sex scenes when they havent even started developing or showing an interest in sex yet?

and why do we keep persisting in this and ignoring the facts - it is just not working!!

Sorry but I don't buy that some schools see the word '7' on it and think that it's perfectly fine to show the whole lot to 7 year olds. Schools who have a comprehensive sex education programme for the whole of key stage 2 (not just doing puberty in Year 6 which many still do) think and discuss very carefully what they are teaching children and why. We teach what some may class as controversial because we strongy believe that having an open and frank approach to sex is the best method for children to grow up and have healthy sexual relationships that are right for them (including choosing to not have one).

As for the relationship between sex education and teenage pregnancy, it is not sex education that has the biggest impact on teenage pregnancy - it's girls ambition and self-respect. I didn't have sex until I was ready (and used contraception) because I was truely terrified of the consequences, both of not being able to go to uni, get a good job etc, but also my parents reaction. If you live in a family and community where being a mother is the only role girls see themselves having, and teenage parenthood carries no stigma, then having sex and getting pregnant at a young age is not a big deal (and yes I know there are teenage parents who have ambition and come from 'respectable' homes, but they are a minority). Because of that, I seriously doubt watching some cartoon sex scene in a sensible classroom environment is what is going to cause someone to get pregnant at age 14.

Children, aged 7 are not being shown sex scenes.

People aren't ignoring the facts as they are not facts.

hockey - I'm sorry that you dont "buy" that some schools are showing that video at 7 years old but having spoken to some parents whose kids have seen it at age 7 without their parents knowledge I can assure you they are. I can also assure you speaking from personal experience that not all schools think and discuss very carefully about what they are teaching.
You also say "you believe" that being open and honest contributes to a healthy sex life and gives them the option to choose, well thats great what you believe, if you strongly believed the world was flat would you teach that too? at one point that was true until it was proved otherwise. What about what parents believe?
Are there any facts to back up what you believe? Have you ever stopped and questioned those beliefs or do you just repeat what those above have trained you to think? Have you ever followed up on children that have left your school to find out whether they are experiencing a healthy sex life? Or whether they are pregnant at 13. No probably not because they are not your responsibilty once they have left.

One thing I do agree with you on is that sex ed has little to do with teenage pregnancies and far more to do with social factors, if you look at teenage pregnancies in this country and then compare it with the deprivation indices for the country you will see that - the most deprived areas have the highest teenage pregnancy rates, alcohol, bad parenting, low self esteem and peer pressure play a far greater part and yet this country still insists that more and more education is the answer and persistently ignores the real reasons.

Also the teenage mothers that you speak of that come from respectable homes and have ambition etc that are in the minority - well that must be where I live, we have extremely low rates of pregnancy, one of the best in the country yet still our primary school children are getting a more hardcore version of sex ed than even what your school does.

And anyway the most obvious thing for a girl to do once she develops sexual feelings and discovers her clitoris is the safest sex of all.

shakira - could you tell me the name of the episode that you think this graphic sex scene takes place in?

I know this series of programmes very well as I've been using them for many, many years as part of the health education programmes in the different schools I have taught in.

If you specify the programme and the content that you have seen that you are finding so disturbing it may help the debate/discussion.

I don't really think schools are likely to start teaching children about bestiality, are they? It is currently illegal in the UK, unlike the clitoris.

Halogen

Harry - Its C4 Living and Growing I believe it is the one called " how babies are made" although as I said earlier I can't reference it because it has been removed from teachers tv and also youtube. The content is a cartoon couple running around a bed with a feather duster before having sex in two different positions.

Children as young as 7 have been shown this video whether you believe it or not, and just because maybe your school or hockey's school is being more responsible and not showing it till year 6 it doesnt mean that all schools are taking that attitude.