Would you, or have you, attended church just to get DC into a good school?

[Boobz]

I have just started thinking about the school admissions process for DD1 who will be applying for a Sept 2013 start. I have seen many threads on here recently talking about the competition for primary places and the angst that parents find themself with trying to get their LO into a "good" school, and so started to think about my own DD's first school, even though we are a way off applying yet.

I have looked at the criteria in our borough, and for community (state) schools, we will only be able to get into a school due to distance from our front door (she is our first so no sibs priority, no SEN, no medical / social problems etc.,) so it really is about where we live and not much else.

Looking at the Ofsted reports and going by admissions last year (i.e. schools that had high numbers of applications) the "church" schools appear to be of a higher standard (in some, but not all cases I realise) and so out of interest I started to read the admissions criteria for these schools. Most if not all said "6 months - 2years+ regular church attendence and commitment to the parish work" or similar.

Both DH and I have been christened, I attended Sunday school as a child, DH has been confirmed and we were married in a church. DD1 and DD2 were christened in our local church at 18 months and 6 weeks respectively (at the same time, just before we came abroad - we live in Sudan at the moment but will be returning to the UK next year) and the church at which they were christened has a good school attached to it.

I don't worship (although attended Chapel regularly whilst at boarding school) and would not consider myself a "believer". But I think I would be happy to attend church twice per month to try and get DD into a good school as I think we owe it to her to try and do the best for her education (we cannot afford private). I would be happy to take the DC as I think that they would enjoy it (the occasion, the singing, the other toddlers in the Church creche) but I would not expect them to pray to a God every night before bed. I understand this makes me a hypocrite and I'm sure many religous people will come on this thread and tell me I'm an awful person, but I wondered if there was anyone else who, in my position, has done or is planning to do the same thing? Would you ever admit to it? What lengths do people go to get a better education for their child?

Whilst I'd always do the best of my ability for DS, I couldnt pretend to find religion to gain a school place. By doing so, I could be taking away a place of a child who is actually being raised in that faith.

I also wouldn't compromise my beliefs to that extent and would simply be a hypocrite for pretending to follow a faith all for the sake of a few Oftsed points.

Agree completely with HappyMummy

Sorry but that is awful. You are lying to yourself and your children and denying a child their genuine place, I think that is disgusting. What sort of example is that to your children, will you be encouraging them to lie throughout their school years?

You have plenty of time and are obviously putting much thought into this, if you are that concerned about ofstead reports etc (if this post is even actually true) then why don't you consider moving instead.

While I agree it's true that many people who believe in God start to attend church regularly in the run up to school admissions, I think that is different to attending mass as a non-believer in order to claim a school place. I agree with happymummyofone, you are potentially taking a place away from a child whose family does have faith.

You would possibly find that if you visited the faith schools, you would realise that their ethos and belief system is not what you want for your child anyway, and that the school that on paper has a lower "score" has a much better atmosphere, and is working hard to improve. It's very subjective.

i would
i would not be proud of myself, and am not going to justify it, but i would do it if the options were church school or really dire school, or as might be the case for you, no suitable school at all.

and you certainly wouldn't be the first. i know one person who has openly (to me) stated that she has attended mass to get her dc into Catholic Primary
TBH i have my suspicions about several others, who "refound" their faith when dcs were small, and then it all seemed to go on the back burner after admissions.

"why don't you consider moving instead?"

yes, because relocating to an area that is affordable, has good work prospects, fabbo non-church schools, and nice affordable family housing is sooooo easy .

I would!
You obviously do have faith as you have done all your major events in church. I have zero faith and have not been in a church for years. So I would be a hypocritical cheat.
You are not !

You sound like a 'Cultural Christian' so it wouldn't be out-and-out alien for you to go to church. I think a lot of people do this, and the criteria don't ask that you believe, just that you go, so it's not 'cheating'. To be honest I think there are a lot of churchgoers as well as vicars who believe in the church, and the idea of belief as a good thing, but not on the actual supernatural claims themselves. So I wouldn't feel too bad (plus it would probably be a good way to get to know other local families when you get back to the UK)

On the other hand I wouldn't necessarily assume that the best school on paper is the best for your DCs. Will you be applying from Sudan or will you get to visit? You also need to find out how heavy the religious ethos is and whether you'd be ok with that for your DCs.

it sounds like you will be applying for nursery entry, which doesn't guarantee a Reception place, so you'd have to stick at the church going up to Reception, but on the other hand it gives you a chance to suck-it-and-see.

boobz, if your profile is up to date, i know the borough in which you'll be living (i used to live in the next one east). before we moved away 3 years ago, that borough had an acute shortage of school places full stop, never mind good school places. i think it's too easy for people who live where there are plenty of good, non-religious school to criticize when they will never be in your situation.

Personally, I think it's absolutely fine! I think that many churches are delighted to fill their pews somehow and if people are doing it for the school place then so be it. I think it's also a way into a community which can have positive effects for lots of people regardless of the God question. For all you/they know, attending church may be the prompt to reconsider your faith. I also don't necessarily see that you are denying a place to a 'genuine' believer, if they are also attending church. And in any case, who's to judge the extent of your belief? Should someone who strongly believes be given priority over someone who sometimes believes, or slightly believes or sometimes has doubts, and how on earth do you measure it? People have been attending church for centuries with all sorts of motives other than genuine belief. I wish I could do the same, but we've left it too late (because we're too lazy on Sundays)!!

no chance

wouldn't pretend I agree with religion for a school place

Dress it up how you like. If you knew it was the right thing to do then you wouldn't be here asking for justification.

We are genuine churchgoers, have been all our lives but have had bad luck this year with illnesses and a mc that has meant dd's attendance at church was a bit patchy for a couple of months. Because we weren't able to sign the form for 52 weeks of the year we will more than likely not get a place for dd at the catholic school attached to the church. The school liaison nun knows us well and if she had any deciding vote we would probably get in. However, a system of purely counting ticked boxes has had to be put in place for the last few years because of people like you. So thanks to everyone who cheats to get a school place because you are depriving someone else.

I would move house first....I am a Christian but don't attend church, I just couldn''t get into it....I wouldn't want to pretend. I have looked into moving house....that seems more realistic.

I think you're probably right jgbmum - perhaps the schools which look better on paper might be not the kind of atmosphere we want for our DC anyway. I'm not able to visit them from here in Sudan, so will have to wait and see when we get back to the UK next year. I do realise that Ofsted is not the be all and end all.

Moving is not as easy as that though, is it mrsscoob? We bought right at the height of the property boom - we would make a loss if we sold now or next year, in order to get closer to a good school. And what if we moved and it still wasn't close enough anyway?

Mayday - I often wonder how Faith is "measured" - can you have "some" faith and "zero" faith? I have done a lot of events in church because my parents were religeous to some extent (but still we didn't attend church regularly as a family when I was young) and so they influenced me in my growing up that you "did" certain things at major events in life, like get married in a church, get your kids christened, go to midnight mass at Christmas time and so on. I still think I would be hypocritical to attend chruch to get my kids into a good school, but I'm trying to figure out if I can live with that.

As for lying to my children - I think there are worse things I can do as an example for my kids. Attending a place of worship where you are taught to love and respect others, as a way of ensuring they have a good start in life by getting them into a good school, is lying yes - but are some lies better than others? Isn't this a lie which will help them more than harm them?

But you are right, I hadn't thought of the children who are true believers not getting a place if my DD did - that would be hard to swallow. I thought that, even though the church schools were over-subscribed, the faith kids (for want of a better phrase!) would always get in over non-faith ones, and there were never that many faith kids in total to mean people lost out - IYSWIM? So if there are 30 places, it's rare that there are 31 applications from faith kids? Or am I totally out here?

Well my two close friends both did exactly that and now have their kids in fantastic primaries instead of having to pay or put up with rubbish schools. I haven't done it because I'd rather move than sit through hundreds of sermons, but that's only a personal choice, not a moral judgement. It's fine to be idealistic, but really all bets are off when it comes to getting a good education for your kids. Do what you can.

Moving isn't that difficult, people do it everyday. But yes I can see why it would be inconvienient and you may lose some money so yeah far better to lie and screw over some other poor family instead. How Christian of you.

Ok, so here's a different question. Due to DH's job, we move around a lot and will only be back in the UK for 2 years before heading abroad again. DD1 is only going to be in reception for 1 year before we move again (probably). Is it that important to get DD into a good primary for reception because this is an important year in her development, or should I think "well it's only the first year and then we are off again anyway - she could go to a "bad" school for this year as it's only 1 year anyway"?

I chose not to do it. It was the wrong choice, the system is stupid anyway. Do whatever you can for your child.

i have read and keep hearing about how the first 6 years of a child's life are the most important for learning so am doing everything i can to get my kids into the best school in our area.

we went to church 1/2hr away to get married in that particular villageso i kind of see the school issue in a similar way. we do go to church regularly anyway but kids who go to church in the village where our 1st choice school is get 1st priority, so we are going to that church as well. i don't think i'd be making such an effort if i didn't go to church already - it's a faith school and if i wasn't a committed christian then i would probably cut my losses and look at the other schools.

Boobz

I think it is important to get your DD into a school that is good for her, makes her feel happy, comfortable, interested etc... But given what you've said the SAT results & glowing Ofsted report may not be so important to your choice.

Church schools have a relatively more stable intake, and will tend to have more of a community - this may be good because there is a more clear social group to slot into, or bad because the school isn't used to kids coming and going and helping them manage transitions.

My DS1 went to a less-good SATs results, very diverse and friendly school which was great for the early years, although it took a longer time to form friendships as there weren't rounds of birthday parties to attend, there were religious and language barriers etc...

DS2 goes to a more white, middle class high achieving primary and it is in some ways easier because the kids and parents have more cultural baggage in common, but in some ways is cliqueier because of it: kids make fast friendships and stick to them rather than getting along with whoever.

I liked DS1's school in KS1 because they were creative, child centered and didnt do loads of SATs focused stuff, but now he is at secondary I can see that he is behind on basic English and maths compared to kids who went to pushier schools, but for R and KS1 when he was finding his feet at school it was great.

Apologies for rambling, I guess my point is that if you are going to move anyway the main thing is to find somewhere she will be happy in Reception, and worry about academics later.

I'd do it. Echo what himalaya said about being a cultural or tribal christian. Nothing wrong with taking the kids to sunday school to give them a decent moral framework - they can decide for themselves at a later stage whether to believe. And nothing wrong as parents with having some time set aside for quiet contemplation every week, even if the creed doesn't match your own.

fortunately, I don't have to - our c of e school is vc.

Thanks Himalaya. I think you're probably right. But do you know whether, when we return from our next abroad posting (so DD will be 7), her having been admitted to a particular school when she was in reception is more likely to get her "back" into that school when we return from abroad? Or do you just have to re-apply and all bets are off? Will it make a difference that she had already attended a particular school for a year? Do you see what I mean?

(Obviously have no idea about how all of this works! What a minefield...)

Are you close enough to the church school that you would get in?
Distance is still a factor

I would do it if I needed to!

My DD went to a Catholic school for the first 3 years of her school career. We are not Catholic but there were 3 spaces and we got one as we lived on the doorstep. However we couldn't get her sister in as by then it was oversubscribed. So we moved house to a new area.

There we got a space at the rock bottom school - the only one with spaces in the area. It was dire and very stressful. Thankfully after a few weeks a space came up in a good school nearby and we transferred and now her sister is going there too. A major pallava but worth it in the end.

I could have gone down the route that several parents were going (and I'd say at least 30% of parents at the Catholic school were doing it), and re-heat or 'feign' Catholicism. This involves months of classes and mass attendance but lots do it. Personally my conscience wouldn't let me. (That annoyed me in itself!)

However, I'm glad we didn't. I asked DD the other day if we did the right thing. She said that she missed her old mates but that she 'didn't want to be Catholic thank you very much!'

The school (which is attached to the church where DDs were christened) is 0.3miles, according to the Direct Gov website, and is the 3rd closest school to us. The first 2 closest are another church school and then a private school. The 4th is private, the 5th Church, the 6th is State but is 0.6m away. Accordingly to last years applications, the furthest distance that the child who got in on distance who lived near that school was 302m (it has a good rep).

Bugger.