Would you, or have you, attended church just to get DC into a good school?

[Boobz]

I have just started thinking about the school admissions process for DD1 who will be applying for a Sept 2013 start. I have seen many threads on here recently talking about the competition for primary places and the angst that parents find themself with trying to get their LO into a "good" school, and so started to think about my own DD's first school, even though we are a way off applying yet.

I have looked at the criteria in our borough, and for community (state) schools, we will only be able to get into a school due to distance from our front door (she is our first so no sibs priority, no SEN, no medical / social problems etc.,) so it really is about where we live and not much else.

Looking at the Ofsted reports and going by admissions last year (i.e. schools that had high numbers of applications) the "church" schools appear to be of a higher standard (in some, but not all cases I realise) and so out of interest I started to read the admissions criteria for these schools. Most if not all said "6 months - 2years+ regular church attendence and commitment to the parish work" or similar.

Both DH and I have been christened, I attended Sunday school as a child, DH has been confirmed and we were married in a church. DD1 and DD2 were christened in our local church at 18 months and 6 weeks respectively (at the same time, just before we came abroad - we live in Sudan at the moment but will be returning to the UK next year) and the church at which they were christened has a good school attached to it.

I don't worship (although attended Chapel regularly whilst at boarding school) and would not consider myself a "believer". But I think I would be happy to attend church twice per month to try and get DD into a good school as I think we owe it to her to try and do the best for her education (we cannot afford private). I would be happy to take the DC as I think that they would enjoy it (the occasion, the singing, the other toddlers in the Church creche) but I would not expect them to pray to a God every night before bed. I understand this makes me a hypocrite and I'm sure many religous people will come on this thread and tell me I'm an awful person, but I wondered if there was anyone else who, in my position, has done or is planning to do the same thing? Would you ever admit to it? What lengths do people go to get a better education for their child?

You find it a bit sad, birdofthenorth? Like I said. What are taxpaying parents supposed to do when their children are rejected from their nearest school because of what they, free thinking adults in a free democratic country, choose to believe or not believe? That's beyond sad.

I'm a total non believer and I rather wish we had done it now. The result is we are stuck in a failing school with no options. I increasingly think in a system like this, playing by the rules does you no favours. Our C of E school is meant to have community places but has managed not to have any, year on year. If you are surrounded by decent schools it is different: we had a choice of bad and failing ones.

I think I'd qualify as the "cultural christian/catholic" described earlier on this thread.

Catholic schools throughout, holy communion, mother fairly devout, both boys baptised.

However, I did, calculatedly, start to attend sunday family services (once a month) so that I could, without feeling like a total fraud, ask the Rector to sign the letter that I knew would get my sons into a particular school.

The school has an outstanding ofsted; it is the school I have driven past my whole life and, when I started to think about these things, the one I wanted to send my children to, as it personifies, for me, a village school in the heart of a thriving community. I believe a religious education is superior to a non religious one, due to the massive exposure of history it provides; I feel better educated, more aware, an owner of more informed opinions because of my religious schooling and I want my children to have the same.

As for them being there depriving a "faith" child from having a place - well, as far as I am concerned I just think that's bollocks. Why should my child not be as deserving of going to the best school in the area as the next person? Why should a family's attendance record be the barometer of how deserving their children are of a good education?

I had zero qualms about using the approach I did and, as both my boys are now thriving at my school of choice, would do it again.

Bloss

Lovely post, birdofthenorth. I do all that - and I love the fact that my DDs are growing up knowing the bible (which underpins a lot of our culture, literature and art). I have always been welcomed by our church even though I am not confirmed and don't take communion and don't actually believe in God! What I do love is being around people of faith, the singing and the wonderful sense of peace I get from being there. Very glad to introduce my DDs to all of it.

I would do almost anything to ensure my child gets a decent education. Getting religion is entirely possible.

Well said Bonsoir. Ditto.

I did.

I personally believe that being a Christian (my ds school is CoE) is more than just attendance at church once a week and believing in something.

I feel it is how you speak, what you do for others, how you help others, basically how moral you are. I have met some fantastic people who are not "believers" and some evil "Christians".

When I was a lot younger I attended church 3 times per week and so I do feel I have "done my bit".

Do all you can to secure a decent school.

I would do it, although I feel guilty even saying that!

It's the system that is flawed, not the parents that do this.

It's wrong that church attendance has anything to do with addmissions criteria in the first place, I don't see how any parent can be criticized for playing an outdated and unfair system just to try and get the best school for their child.

It does not deny a child from another churchgoing family a place any more than being fortunate enough or rich enough to live very close to a school does. Except that going to church is free and something that anyone can do. Moving to, or renting a house close to a school is not something everyone can do.

I know several parents whom has done this.

where we lived when my oldest was starting school there was a chatolic primary many parents went to church to get the place. One in particular I remember had her dd baptised in the Catholic faith even though she had refused to go down that lane to marry her husband and originally wanted to get her dd christned in a CoE once she realised the school situation she not only changed her mind she also became a church goer. she went every Thursday for 3 years then stopped saying she haddone what she needed to do.

my 3 youngest are in a CofE school not because I went to church (I am not CofE nor is dh) but because when we moved down here the school was the only local school with spaces for all of my children. As it happens it is now oversubscribed and parents are once again upping the church attendence the current year 2 had 3 successfull appeals (how I have never truly understood) because of church attendence from the parents.. (siblings are above church attending and in that year there was 14 siblings for 15 intake - hence my ? as to how theese 3 first borns got in)

May parents continue to go to church to get the coverted 2ndary church school.
I have not gone for this school in fact discounted it as I this time had a choice as to where to send my children and I actively chose a non religious nominated school.

I think only you can answer this question.. if your contience feels ok then I think it is ok. but I would suggest a visit to the shcool (I knw you said not possible but what about a grandparent to do it?)

Great post speakercorner - what a positive attitude.

I haven't, because I found out that church attendance would make no difference to getting DC into the lovely CofE school I liked.

But until I found that out, I was prepared to go to church in order to secure a place.

I expect my conscience would have pricked me a lot, but I still would have done it.

Where we live Catholic families, Jewish families, Muslim families and families of no faith at all will carry on attending the CofE church in order to guarantee a place at our village school. It's a disgusting state of affairs when the ONLY state-funded provider of education in the area is permitted to discriminate like this but needs must I suppose.

Looks like the thread took a bit of a turn after I finished work yesterday!

I'm glad others have said they would or have done this - and explained their reasons. I think from my OP I had already cleared my conscience that I would be prepared to do this to get my DC a good education (and we live in an area which doesn't even have enough primary places full stop, let alone "good" places - so I think it's even more relevant to us).
I think what Bloss said has really struck a chord and I think it's probably the way I feel about things to an extent too.

So, here's the rub. As I said in my OP, we're currently in Sudan. We won't be back until 6 months before the closing of applications, so can only start attending the church 6 months in advance. If I start attending some kind of church here (which would be a nice idea for the DDs as I think it's very toddler friendly, and there ain't much to do out here in this heat most days!), do you think a letter from the vicar here would do in lieu of not attending for a full 2 years back in the UK? (Now it really does start to sound calculating - although I think I would enjoy going here and giving my kids a new avenue of meeting friends and new people from different walks of life). Most of Sudan is Muslim with Sharia Law so would be good to expose them to something different entirely.

Thanks for all your views - it's been really helpful.

Nope, didn't do it and still wouldn't do it

We ended up moving before the dcs started reception (old mortgage was too large so we downsized) and where we used to live it was either a v good church school or a local primary school with big issues. We chose the local primary school and it was fine.

We aren't religious at all but yes, I think it's morally bankrupt to do this and it wouldn't sit well with me or dh for that matter.

Incidentally, that local school with issues has now become an outstanding school. It got a new head and completely revitalised itself. I don't personally agree with church schools and believe we should all have the same right of entry to every primary school in catchment. So although I wouldn't go to church to get my child a place, I don't believe the church schools should exist in the first place.

We got in on distance to the local Catholic primary, but weren't looking likely to get into the Catholic secondaries, and the alternative was NOT pretty (talking worst school in the league tables here and I'd have been bullied into oblivion - I was bullied enough already thank you). Mum got us both converted to Catholicism (then-step-dad was a Catholic so it was 50/50 along religious lines in the family anyway) to make sure we got in.

Not a recent development - that was pushing 20 years ago.

foxinsocks - interesting that you see it that way. I see it as morally bankrupt not to do our utmost as parents to ensure our children get the very best possible education.

I would not consider any situation where my children saw me acting out a lie as compatible with "getting them a good education"; to me the moral example I set is a very important part of their education.

But I do hate the current system where children can be turned away from their local school on religious grounds.

Don't you think that showing your children the nature of the compromises that life requires is part of their education?

I think that the people saying it is 'wrong', 'inmoral', 'corrupt' or whatever, actually have suitable alternatives and options available to them.

Not everyone is so lucky.

I would never pretend to be religious to get my children into a school but then again, I have not been in a situation where not doing so would be detrimental to my DC's education.

I would also never dare to judge other parents who feel this is the only way to ge their DC into the school they feel is best of them (and pay for).

Some people really should consider getting off their moral high horses and stop judging others.

And like myBOYSareBONKERS quite rightly pointed out, being a Christian is (or should be) more that church attendance.

I just wanted to add something. I feel that as a personal position, I would find it very very difficult to fake a religious belief. Yes, I am a Christian, and sometimes feel that when people fake the religion that I deeply believe in they are mocking. That's different if someone comes to church with an open mind and would like to explore a religion. I know quite a few parents who started coming more regularly to our church to get their children in the school, and their faith progresses slowly and even asked to be confirmed. I would really struggle to recite a prayer if I thought it was loads of rubbish.

That doesn't mean that I think the system is fantastic and faultless.

If you DC were denied access to your nearest best school which you pay for (via your taxes) because you go to church, what would be your personal position?

No, I'm answering the OP. She asked 'What lengths do people go to get a better education for their child?' It's my personal answer. I would move house, move area (which we did) but I wouldn't pretend a religious belief. It's my position. But it's entirely up to you and I understand if it's your only option.

I am not saying that it's a good system, or I am not commenting on the system. I'm answering the OP.

So you're saying you understand if other people need to resort to that and you don't judge them but it's not something you could personally do?
Fair enough

I very much take the view that a school that is 90% state funded should not be able to set its admissions criteria for 100% of the places. It is also my view that a church school should be reaching out to the rest of the community, not creating an environment for those already committed. Also, the current system doesn't achieve an education for those committed to their faith, but a system where you get a head start above others by being somewhere twice a month or whatever. So often it's social selection rather than faith. I don't think people are wrong to play this game, but there shouldn't be the opportunity to "buy" a "better" education in this way. The system needs changing.

I looked up the criteria for my local VA CofE school, and they have half their spaces reserved for people meeting the 2-year-fortnightly-approved-church criterion.

Personally I then breathed a huge sigh of relief as no way could I commit to that frequency of anything, let alone something I'm actively against. As it happens, despite the school being hugely oversubscribed, even when they added a bulge class last year, they still can't fill all the church spaces - only 10 of 60 last year were admitted on religious grounds. One advantage of an ethnically-mixed area!

I have some Christian friends with older kids and they've said that going to church because you believe what they do and want to is fine, but they're really looking forward to not feeling they 'have' to go most weeks. They moved out of London to get better schools only to find all the ones in their area of Surrey are CofE and in demand for miles.