Would you, or have you, attended church just to get DC into a good school?

[Boobz]

I have just started thinking about the school admissions process for DD1 who will be applying for a Sept 2013 start. I have seen many threads on here recently talking about the competition for primary places and the angst that parents find themself with trying to get their LO into a "good" school, and so started to think about my own DD's first school, even though we are a way off applying yet.

I have looked at the criteria in our borough, and for community (state) schools, we will only be able to get into a school due to distance from our front door (she is our first so no sibs priority, no SEN, no medical / social problems etc.,) so it really is about where we live and not much else.

Looking at the Ofsted reports and going by admissions last year (i.e. schools that had high numbers of applications) the "church" schools appear to be of a higher standard (in some, but not all cases I realise) and so out of interest I started to read the admissions criteria for these schools. Most if not all said "6 months - 2years+ regular church attendence and commitment to the parish work" or similar.

Both DH and I have been christened, I attended Sunday school as a child, DH has been confirmed and we were married in a church. DD1 and DD2 were christened in our local church at 18 months and 6 weeks respectively (at the same time, just before we came abroad - we live in Sudan at the moment but will be returning to the UK next year) and the church at which they were christened has a good school attached to it.

I don't worship (although attended Chapel regularly whilst at boarding school) and would not consider myself a "believer". But I think I would be happy to attend church twice per month to try and get DD into a good school as I think we owe it to her to try and do the best for her education (we cannot afford private). I would be happy to take the DC as I think that they would enjoy it (the occasion, the singing, the other toddlers in the Church creche) but I would not expect them to pray to a God every night before bed. I understand this makes me a hypocrite and I'm sure many religous people will come on this thread and tell me I'm an awful person, but I wondered if there was anyone else who, in my position, has done or is planning to do the same thing? Would you ever admit to it? What lengths do people go to get a better education for their child?

*year's

I can't say what I'd do in the same shoes. Wasn't our dilemma. But I was absolutely delighted when the head of the church of england's education board announced that he was in favour of reducing the number of church attendance related places. For me, it doesn't seem fair that the rules put people in the position of being tempted to be deceitful in order to get a school place, but I can't blame folk who do, given the alternatives. The church can and should lead the way on this.

I am a committed Christian and do attend church regularly. Personally I don't think I would have too much problem about someone starting to attend church in order to get their child into a faith school as long as they were intending to keep coming once the child was in the school. I would see this as showing that they had some kind of commitment and openness to exploring faith issues for themselves, even if they wouldn't describe themselves as a "believer".

However, if I was a parent of a young child and my child did not get a place at a faith school despite my faith and regular church attendance because of many others who were attending purely to get their child into a faith school and with no openness to explore their own faith issues, then I might feel differently!! I have no idea whether this actually ever happens though!

Boobz - yes, if you go away you have to reapply, and there is no priority for having been in the school before.

I wouldn't normally say move, because as other posters have said it's not that easy, but given your international lifestyle if you are not happy with the long term prospects for schools in this area why not sell the house while you are in the uk on this posting and then rent next time you come back?

sarahfreck it does happen, it's happened at the school I hoped DD would go to. I stood in the line waiting to pick my daughter up from pre-school last week and listened to a discussion between two mothers who had got places for thieir children in September and were openly talking about how nice it would be to not have to go to mass every week from September and how hard it had been to do their required 2.5 years attendance. I know of three genuine churchgoers whose children didn't get in, one who was a sibling. And this is why I am assuming that we don't stand much chance of getting in. And I'm hopping about it.

I just think we will make too much of a loss Himalaya. We are hoping that by the time we get back from our next abroad posting (circa 2016!) the house prices will have recovered and we will be in a better position to sell. We could sell now, but lose money, and then would be renting which is money spent paying someone else's mortgage off. I think, for the sake of one year in Reception, it makes more sense to take our chances with the local schools (still haven't decided whether to try the church angle or not and explore my faith a bit and expose DDs to it - I think Mrsscoob might hunt me down if I do!)

Our local church is filled with "devout" families with young children thanks to the popularity of the church school. DS and DD started there, I soon realised that the school results were nothing to do with the school but were the result of the army of tutors the parents employed using the school as a "creche". The head was the most unchristian person I have ever met in my life, the teaching awful and the parents incredibly snotty - for no apparent reason. I have since moved both of mine to Independent schools and am amazed at the difference. Parents at the local church school continue to look down on parents with children at other schools in the area, but although the other schools may not look so on paper, they are in fact a lot better than the church school.
Moral? Don't judge schools by league tables, or even by easily manipulated ofsted inspections.

If you are a Christian and would like your children to go to a school with a Christian ethos, then join go to Church every Sunday and make that committment to yourself and to your children. If you are not a Christian, then don't send your children to a Christian school. How will you feel when your kids come back to you and ask you questions about Jesus, will your answer be 'well that's a load of rubbish I don't believe in that stuff' or will you happily lie to your own children and say 'yes that's true, hon'.

Be honest to yourself and stop looking at kilometers and admission criteria and ofsted reports.

Annelongditton, my kids go to a CoE school and I feel that many parents of independent schools look down on me because they think that as a family, we are 'faking it'. I've even had another mum I was introduced to, saying in front of many other people, 'oh, so you found God since your children have started school'. So I think it goes both ways.

i haven't read all the thread but i would definitely do it and have. I am not catholic but have baptised both my children catholic to get into school. Their school priorites catholic children - although puts no emphasis on church attendance. If it did i would attend church more. Most of the parents are catholic but none full on religious and hardly any attend church. To be fair i do believe and i fully support the church and school concerned so i don't feel like i am cheating it. Regardless i would do what it takes to get my child in and really dont feel guilty about it -others are open to do the same if they want.

If you don't believe and don't feel you can support the faith then i wouldn't send your kids to a church school as they offer a very one-sided view and my DD is always asking questions about god etc.

No. I haven't, wouldn't, and couldn't, personally.

But I do have (very good) friends who have, and fair enough - they didn't feel they had any other choice at the time. Some of them feel differently now.

OP, you sound decidedly more Christian than me (or dh) so not so black and white maybe...

Due to gaps between children and the three tier school system we realised dd3 wouldn't automatically get a sibling place at dd1&2's CofE lower school, despite the fact that dd3 had been to the school every day to collect her sisters and we had been actively involved in the school community (PTA and classroom helper etc) for the previous 7 years.

The alternative at the time was not an attractive prospect (although to be fair has improved dramatically since) so we had this dliemma. NEither of us were church goers and none of the children have been (and still are not) Christened. I was brought up as a Quaker and find our local very high CofE church a bit much. Dh's family though are closely involved though, DH was confirmed there many years ago. In the end DH decided he would take the girls to the family service (normally twice a month). The rules said it had to be for the year before application to the school, that was over 3 years ago and they are all still going, with ds now too :)

The vicar knows our family very well. He knew why DH and the girls started going as PIL had been very open about it with him. The vicar takes the view that he doesn't mind why people start attending, it's whether they carry on going that matters :)

I am a practicing Christian but do not agree with church schools; I think that they cause division with church schools that are perceived to be 'good' filling up with middle class children whose parents will do the church attendance thing.

So, I would be more than happy for Christian place to be taken by a non-believer unless it was our nearest school.

My preferred route is for my children to go to their nearest school, mix with local people and - if it's not good enough - try and improve it. And if it's unimprovable, then I would look at other schools.

However, popular doesn't automatically mean 'good'.

I would.

We are in the catchment of one junior school only. It is a CofE voluntary aided school and is the only school in the village and regular attendance at the village church is one of the entrance criteria. We live about a mile away.

We are not Christian, however if it's a toss-up between pretending to be so, or condemning DS to a 15 mile round trip every day to a school in the nearest town, where none of his friends will go - which he probably wouldn't get into anyway being so far out of catchment, I will happily sit in Church with my fingers crossed - as do 95% of the parents in our village.

It's a disgraceful state of affairs, but until the government stops kowtowing to religious types I don't see how it will ever change.

Oh and to add to my comment. the infant school in the village is also CofE, but VA so no need to attend church. So as soon as all the kids are in Y2, all the parents start attending church to ensure that their kids will be able to go to the junior school.

Crazy, but that's they way things are out in the sticks where the majority of schools are CofE.

sorry, meant VC not VA...

That's awful, hogsback. Though no doubt the church are pleased that their flagging figures receive an artificial boost.

OP, no I haven't and wouldn't but I'm too much of an atheist iyswim. I don't blame parents who work the sysytem (but isn't it EMBARRASSING to suddenly start going to mass when your dc are very young only to stop once they're safely in schoolo?), but it's not for me.

I would hate the idea of having to pretend to be something I'm not to my dc especially, but also to other parents etc.

I have a friend who is attending church purely to get her DD into the school, despite the fact that there are other perfectly good primaries in the catchment area. I am usually pretty laid back about other people's parenting choices but this really bothers me. It seems so horribly pushy and so lacking in thought for others. Just dishonest and wrong. I know that she will stop attending if/when her DD gets allocated. There is just something so gratuitously self-centred about the whole thing. I realise that in some areas the options are more limited and I guess I can understand why, in those circumstances, you might be forced to play the game. My friend not in this situation. She is normally a very moral person and I am disappointed that she is doing this.

!

ANYONE is allowed to go to a church - not just staunch believers. As long as you are willing to go and sit respectfully, listen, try to participate a bit -ie not chatter while hymn singing is going on, text or read emails while the sermon is being preached or prayers being said. (Well, I haven't seen people do that in a church -yet- but i have seen it in a theatre while the show was going on which was quite astounding, not to mention rude.) You have a right to go as much as any staunch Christian.

Churches/Christianity don't demand that you have to be a passionate believer before you're allowed to turn up. As long as you have an open mind and treat the whole thing respectfully, listen and think a bit about what you hear and what you see. And if you are happy for your DD to be hear Christian teaching and join in with other kids in their activities, I don't see why not.

As a Christian myself, I don't believe that there is a cut off between a "totally committed believer" and a "slight" believer. And going to church doesn't "make" a person Christian any more than going to a stable weekly makes you a horse. Christ is far more powerful than that! So yes, OP, go to the church regularly if you want to. As long as the whole family is respectful when they go (ie not constantly talk about "we're only here so we can get into the school, so there") and keep an open mind. I suspect if the family enjoys being at church, the attendance will continue, if the family doesn't, then eventually you might decide if it really is worth turning up.

As for me, I'd go to a church if I thought we were happy to worship there, and I'd choose a church and its affiliated school if I thought both were worth attending, not just the school. I doubt if I were an atheist I would go to a church for the sake of getting into a school, but I think that's probably because I wouldn't agree with the school's ethos in the first place, rather than the church itself.

@hosgback - I do think that situation in your area is disgraceful. It can't be right that the only alternative is 15 miles away. If you do need to attend church to stay local, I am guessing that many families don't get a place. The government needs to build another junior school (a non-faith one) in the area so that families have more choice....unless the village population is so tiny that both schools won't have enough pupils to fill them. Then again, I think the "not enough schools" scenario is everywhere and part of a national problem.

southofthethames: actually it's a 14 mile round trip rather than the nearest alternative school being 14 miles away so not quite so bad. To be honest, nothing has really changed since Victorian times when church schools were first established. Back then, it was a requirement that you attend church to get your place in school too.

The difference is, when church schools were first established, they were 100% funded by the church, so I suppose it was fair enough that the church could set the admission policy. Now they are only 10% funded by the church, and 90% by the state, and yet somehow the church still gets to set the admission criteria.

In reality, the vast majority of people in the village do get a place - but many go to church for insurance purposes, as someone from outside of the village who goes to our local church would actually get priority over someone who lives in the village, but is not a church attender.

There would be no chance of getting another school built, it's a tiny school as it is.

Yes I would. Definitely.

I had my DDs christened because I wanted them to understand and know Christianity even though I am not specifically Christian myself.

London friends assumed that I did it for schools, but that was never a factor since the church schools around here aren't the middle-class draw that they seem to be elsewhere.

As it happens, DD has ended up going to a church school. RE is her favourite subject and she adores the church. I was planning to move her to my preferred school but we have ended up staying and this means she is eligible for the church secondary in our area.

I may well increase my church-going to help ensure that she gets a place.But DH has said that he won't do that - it is totally against his principles.

The State education system in this country allows to discriminate against the offspring of taxpayers who do not hold the same theological views as them but does not have a problem accepting their money. What's fair, ethical or even Christian about that? Should parents be called hypocrits for navegating a system that is unfair in its core?

Well said. If you don't do it then you may have to travel to the other side of town in rush hour to get a kid to a failing school when you live right opposite a church school. We do it is utterly stupid, wish I hadn't got up on my high horse. I should have just gone to church like everybody else. This is a stupid country.

@hogsback, yes, oops, I did indeed misread your post. That said, 7 and a half miles is still a bit of a journey for a little one. Nowadays, if the church is only funding 10% of the places, then maybe the church allocation should only be 10% ;-) .....roughly meaning 3 places if it's a class of 30, maybe 2 places for a class of 15 (can't have half a child!)........ I think there are actually a lot of individuals, including Christians, who'd like to see schools separated from any sort of religion. They would still have RE lessons to learn about different religions/faiths.

I am a faith governor at an Outstanding CofE primary so have some experience of this! Where we live if you are only 0.3miles away you would get in on distance criteria (so long as you live within the Parish boundary which on our admissions criteria is significant) but obviously you may live somewhere denser in population or your chosen school may be even more popular than our's so you may not be able to bank on getting in without applying on faith criteria.

As a Christian I would have no problem with you going to church to get your child in providing

A) you listen & open your heart to what is being said, don't mock it!
B) you are prepared to tell your kid what Christians believe if they ask about Jesus, Easter etc (not tell them it is true it pretend you believe it, just share the viewpoint with them)
C) you show up occasionally after DC have been admitted, again with an open & non-scornful heart- we do find it a bit sad when people come so calculatedly then completely disappear, especially if they'd been bringing their kids, who may grow up with a fuzzy odd memory of having been to church for a couple of years then stopped dramatically!