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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

dd1 yr 1 can't add 15+7, dh wants to move her to private school. Opinions?

108 replies

mumonahottinroof · 28/03/2011 09:51

DD1 is a sensitive soul and homework with her is never fun. Yesterday I had a lie in and came down to discover her in tears and dh in a fury because he'd spent an hour trying to explain to her how to add 15 + 7 for her homework. She just didn't get it and when she doesn't grap something she gets in a terrible tizz, screams and refuses to listen. Dh fulminating about how we should move her to a private school where she'd be "taught properly"

Now please don't flame, dh was just in a bad mood - he and I agree that the teaching at her school is generally excellent. We are going to move dd to a private school at some point as our local secondary is diabolical but for now I'm happy with where she is. What I want to know is - is a) is it unusual for a 6yo to find this kind of addition hard b) How can I help her "get" it?

By the way, in the end she didn't do homework and I wrote a note on it saying she didn't understand and I didn't think it would help if I just did it for her. Am hoping her teacher (who has just started, old adored one has gone on ml) will read and take note.

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wahwahwah · 28/03/2011 09:54

Has she learned how to add this type of sum at school? Maybe your husband is showing her is a different way than the school and she is just getting flustered. My dad used to dothis (and he taught maths at university!). Have you thought about Kumon classes?

piratecat · 28/03/2011 09:54

tbh i don't think my dd would have 'got' that sum straight away at six either.

your dh was a shit. poor kid. some kids find maths really hard to grasp.

will he kick off like that when she can't understand 15+7 in her private school aswell.

Michaelahpurple · 28/03/2011 09:55

I don't think it is at all unusual for year 1s to still find "crossing a ten" as it were tricky, and I woudn't panic. It is frustrating how often they don't want to be helped by parents, having tizzies etc, but I think it makes sense to check in with her teacher. Did you husband use number lines, as I think this is how the would do it at school (with a bit of chunking of the 7). I wouldn't panic yet!

munstersmum · 28/03/2011 09:59

Did either of you show her how to count on, on her fingers? It always struck me as odd that school didn't teach counting on fingers to the little ones. Ds now in yr2 still finds it helpful. I don't think she's unusual in finding it hard at that age. (Speaks as a parent)

MiraNova · 28/03/2011 10:03

I think it does take a while for some things to 'click', and children learn in different ways as well. You could encourage your DD to play on the BBC Bitesize site as that may help her get it. www.bbc.co.uk/schools/ks1bitesize/

figcake · 28/03/2011 10:04

I blame number lines - DS just doesn't get them, I showed him column addition and it clicked immediately (he is just over 5 1|2 in yr1). I don't understand why everyone has to learn the same thing in the same way - surely it is more important that they 'get it' regardless of chosen method?

MollieO · 28/03/2011 10:05

Ds is at private school. Top third of class ability wise overall and one if the more able ones in maths. He couldn't do that addition in year 1. If you chopped his fingers off I doubt he could do it now in yr 2. What does the teacher say about it?

Original poster

mumonahottinroof · 28/03/2011 10:05

Dh was sorely provoked, I think he'd been trying for about an hour before he lost his temper. But yes, I have pointed out to him that he'd be even crosser if he was paying £4,500 a term and she still couldnt' do it

For number lines - should we make an actual physical number line for her to count on?

I did try to show her how to use fingers and I'm sure he did too but she was in such a state she couldn't do anything, just yelling she hated maths, homework etc etc. The teacher says she is great at maths

OP posts:

smee · 28/03/2011 10:06

DS would have found that tricky in Yr1. They seem to come on in leaps in Yr2. Could you maybe remind your DH, that in lots of countries they don't start formal education until 6 or even 7. There's very good reasons why they don't - your daughter's showing him that. Might be worth trying to get your DH to mess about with her too over it all - maybe turn it into a family joke. Poor kid'll hate maths/ doing it with him if he doesn't.

witchwithallthetrimmings · 28/03/2011 10:10

Funnily enough I think this is the kind of sum that they go back wards on - a bit like a 3 year old that says sheeps and not sheep. When they are a bit younger they can do this with their fingers but when they are older they know about crossing a ten and tens and units and it confuses them. The confusion is actually a sign that they are trying to process what long addition involves.

Anyway for what is it worth my son (just 6) can do this but he is working at level 2 maths (so year 2)

sue52 · 28/03/2011 10:13

DD2 could have done it in year one, DD1 would have had difficutly, they both attended a state primary. DD1 has gone on to achieve an A in maths at A level. If I were you I really would not worry at this stage.

01march2011 · 28/03/2011 10:13

Number lines - yes you do physically draw a number line! Start at 15, then all she has to do is count 7 and the one she lands on is the answer!

clayre · 28/03/2011 10:14

My dd still struggles and she's in p3/y2, if she had her fingers cut off I doubt she could count, through experience, my dd goes into meltdown if she can't understand something, your dh should have gave up after a few minutes and moved onto something else or every time your dd is faced with something she cant do she will think it will be like what happened yesterday!

I have spent this school year changing the way we do homework as dd was always worked up before she even started!

Is there any reason why she cant add using Lego bricks?

FannyFifer · 28/03/2011 10:14

Way to go dad, that's the way to get a child hating maths, bravo!

SylvanianFamily · 28/03/2011 10:15

my dd, if you ask her 'cold', she'll often not be in that mindset - and guess wildly in an effort to make you go away and leave her to her buttrflies or her stickers or whatever. Once she tunes in to her 'learning', she becomes a lot more competent. I think as adults, we're done 15+7 so many times, we 'know' the answer, rather than need to concentrate to calculate it.

It's like...... If your DH is any good at maths, ask him for the power series expansion of 1/(1-x) - while he's driving or stacking the dishwasher or similar. It's dead easy if you've got your 'maths head' on, and maybe a scrap of paper to do workings - but many people will be a bit caught out if their mind is elsewhere.

Which is a longwinded way of saying - your Dd might be a lot more competent sitting at a desk at school, than sitting at the kitchen table in a situation of escalating emotion with your Dh...

TRL · 28/03/2011 10:16

It's very possible your DH was either using a different method or simply using unfamiliar vocab to describe the sum.

FWIW, DS2 is currently in Yr 1 at a private school and sits on the top numeracy table in his class. He is about 95% accurate with that kind of addition in his head now but that's really been since Christmas - he seemed clueless before! However he's totally accurate if he uses a number line. Maybe your DD could do her H/W with a number line in front of her, then she just has to count on along the line. I bet they're used in her classroom as that's how addition and subtraction are taught now. In fact DS1 used one whenever he wanted till the end of Yr 2.

I really don't think it's unusual not to 'get' 15 + 7 = 22. Why should it? What does it actually mean? There are some kids who speedily learn these things by rote almost whilst other children take their time with 15 blocks adding 7 blocks etc, day after day after day. She's totally normal.

SylvanianFamily · 28/03/2011 10:19

My Dd is heavily prasied at (state) school whenever she 'modularises' her working, and figures out methods of solution, rather than learning by rote.

So she would probably chew her finger for a while, and then notice that 7 is 5+2 , and that 15+5 = 20 is an easy sum and 20+2 = 22 is an easy sum.

GooseyLoosey · 28/03/2011 10:20

I don't think its unusual to be unable to do that at 6.

Can I offer a word of advice to your dh? I have been known to reduce dd (also 6, but youngest in Yr 2) to tears when she cannot get what I have tried for hours to explain. I haven't meant to do it and I cannot tell you how bad it makes me feel. I just cannot get why she does not get things I think she should. I understand where your dh is coming from. However, someone on here suggested that the pressure I put her under may give her "brain freeze" - she panics when she knows she can't see what I want her to, that she becomes unable to think. This just made me feel even worse, but I think there is something in it. Could I suggest that if your dh is losing patience, he does anything but let your dd know - maybe get up and make a cup of tea while she looks at it herself or give an excuse and hand over to you for a while.

MollieO · 28/03/2011 10:22

I'd add that if your dd doesn't like homework then don't look at private school! I can't wait until Ds is in year 3 and can do study club after school which means doing homework at school. I did look at one school for year 3 that doesn't set any homework however I'd have to take on a second job to afford the stonkingly high fees!

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 28/03/2011 10:26

DS2 would have "got" that in YR1 - but then maths is his "thing". (now it YR2, in the top 5 in maths in entire year group).

Now way would DS1 have got that in YR1. And he was average in maths

SummerRain · 28/03/2011 10:26

They wouldn't even have been given a sum like that here in Ireland at that age. dd is six and the biggest addition sums they do are single number additions with a sum of no more than 10.

dd is good at maths but she'd struggle with 15 + 7 and tbh I wouldn't expect her to grasp it.

My dad is very mathematically able and I hated him doing my homework with me as he used to get so cross and frustrated and I could never understand what he was on about.

His attitude made me think I was shit at maths for years and as a result I was crap at them. Now as an adult I'm studying science with the OU and maths that flummoxed me as a child/teen suddenly make sense.

Don't let him put her off maths completely with his unrealistic expectations

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 28/03/2011 10:28

Yes - I would just ech what GooseyLoosey says in her 10.20 post as well. I confess I used to be the same with DS1 with his reading around that age. I used to feella wful, and it created all sorts of issues. I learned to step back and it helped greatly.

FreudianSlippery · 28/03/2011 10:29

Try and find some physical ways of representing this. Perhaps make the number line into a makeshift board game?

The book 'math games for kids' by Peggy Kaye (on amazon) is great for ideas, loads of suggestions of ways to cement various concepts, if you and DH can put the time in to make the games.

I would not recommend Kumon. It may eventually help her recall - so she would remember that 15+7=22 but she wouldn't necessarily understand WHY, and that is much more important. I used to work for Kumon and it is all about speed, not proper understanding.

Original poster

mumonahottinroof · 28/03/2011 10:33

Thanks everyone

I think dh's frustration was that if the school was setting this homework dd should know how to do it - why set it if it was something she hadn't a clue how to do. Apparently she is on the top table at maths.

But he and dd are very temperamentally alike and prob not a great fit when it comes to doing homework together. She frustrates me and I am much more patient. I think a lot of the problem is not knowing what method is being used to teach her, I've ordered a book on how to do "modern" maths which may help and I will make a physical number line and try to do the homework that way with her tonight (as after all this I forgot to bring it in this morning )

It's all made worse because dh wants her to sit 7 plus exams next year and I am not sure she's at all a suitable candidate given her propensity for tizzes.

OP posts:

megapixels · 28/03/2011 10:34

It's a good idea for your dh to stop helping your dd with her homework for a bit, time for a break from them working together. You step in if you are up for it, and he can pick up later once he is relaxed enough to actually help her rather than get frustrated and upset her.

I wouldn't get so hung up on finding a particular method for this type of thing, any method would be ok as long as she gets it. The simplest would be to get some small objects (buttons, beads etc.), count out 15 of them, then 7 of them, and add them up. Also a number line (draw the whole line out, starting from 0, just to make it really clear) would be ok, or counting with fingers. Since it is a simple sum actually seeing it getting added up helps, so then later with larger numbers she could do it mechanically using the methods she's learnt.

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