Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

RoadArt, I think your DCs school is a rare anomaly. I doubt there's a SACRE in the land which doesn't include any christianity in the curriculum. Also, while children can't opt out, parents have a legal right to withdraw their children from collective worship and RE (about the only people I've heard of doing it routinely are Jehovahs Witnesses who dont like the standard brand of Christianity). If you were told otherwise, that was simply wrong.

'bringing children to an awareness of a caring god' - yuk - what a mushy, vapid, intellectually dishonest statement.

Himalaya: Well, quite. School is lovely in every other respect but I remember being annoyed with that sentence in the brochure and determined to make sure I undermined any such attempt should it happen.

My children's school in the UK had a visiting vicar and I too was really annoyed about the influence he seemed to have. I'm very happy for them to learn about different religions (they are now in a totally secular system where there is no mention of anything even vaguely religious - they don't even sing carols) indeed I'm arguing for RS on another thread.

But the visiting vicar thing is something entirely other IMO. Ours was a nice enough chap (my sister is a vicar so I'm not totally prejudiced) but he did (of course) have strong beliefs, and they were transmitted to the children. For ds that wasn't an issue, we just had some interesting discussions, fair enough. But dd decided that because 'Father Christopher' said so was sufficient to accept what he said (it later turned out that what made him so infallible was his 'big house' following a trip to the church). Luckily when the head changed the vicar disappeared, but it is irritating if you have specifically chosen a community school to find that you got religious instruction thrown in too.

People really ought to be aware that there are no secular schools and a 'community school' has to follow the education acts which people don't seem to have read before they send a DC to school.

Springchicken I'm going to put aside the religion in schools argument for a second, and go back to the individual case. I'm going be honest with you here, and I hope you take it in the spirit with which it's intended...

You sound just really desperate to control this situation, and I genuinely don't know why you're so worried? Your DS is 6, FGS, he's not going to make up his mind about his spirituality for a VERY long time, and any paths he follows now are highly unlikely to last.

So what if he came home tomorrow and told you he was going to be a Buddhist? It'll last all of 5 mins. And as he gets older he will be perfectly entitled to choose whatever faith or lack thereof he wants - that's what being an adult is about.

You are more defensive about your belief system than any religious person I've come across in a long time, but really what you should be doing is informing your DS what you believe, explaining why you DON'T believe in any religion, and also telling him ALL ABOUT the other beliefs in the world.

Taking this path of uber-censoring is going to end in one of two ways: (a) as your DS gets older, he will know exactly what buttons to push if he wants to rebel, and you'll find yourself with a Jehovah's Witness for a son, or (b) you will end up with a child with a patronising and unpleasant zero tolerance of anyone whose beliefs differ from his own.

Are either of those scenarios acceptable to you?

exotic, the education act pertaining to 'collective worship' is an anachronism which should be abolished, but more immediately, the way in which these laws are interpreted vary hugely from school to school. Secondary schools are theoretically bound by the same law, but in practice many effectively avoid the unacceptable end of the spectrum which happens in too many (not all) primary schools. My DDs schools written policy on 'collective worship' for instance includes:

'Worship derives from the Anglo-Saxon word meaning honour, and worship
can be rendered: to deities, or to people of excellence, worthy of honour or
respect, and by extension to concepts, principles and conduct which are
worthy of celebration and held to be of central importance to the
community which worships.
Although worship is often regarded as veneration paid to a supreme being
or power, worship in schools must necessarily be of a different character.
(Circular1/94 p 57 Dfes) At XXXX worship is defined in the broadest sense
of the word, and places especial emphasis upon the celebration and
honour of achievements, ideas and values which are central to the ethos of
XXXX.

If your DCs go to a school which seems to be going too far (e.g. inviting clergy who present beliefs as fact - theres no legal requirement to do that for sure!) then do talk to the school. The BHA website has some ideas for alternatives which may be useful if you want to generate constructive suggestions as to how they could moderate the situation within the current law.

NWNH: I am sure DS will make up his own mind in due course. I am a bit concerned about what this particular crap-peddler may be telling the DC as I have heard (on here as well as elsewhere) of visiting vicars scaring and distressing DC or humiliating them by (for instance) telling them they'll go to hell if they are not baptised, or singling out the kids who are not christians.
In general I am concerned over what appears to be an increasing cultural pandering to superstition with all the misogyny and homophobia that entails. I do think religious education in schools for older DC ought to address this sort of thing as it happens.

SGB - I'm not sure the pandering is increasing - maybe we are more aware of it as people increasingly challenge the old status quo? (I hope so anyway)

Springchicken I think if the vicar had said anything beyond "this is what Lent is and this is why Christians give things up", you'd know about it. Until you have any firm evidence that this PARTICULAR vicar is crossing the line as you see it, I'd drop it. Why make more of something than it really is?

Nowaynohow - I find your post really insulting, the part I find the most insulting is belief system.

I hope you don't take offence at me suggesting that I find your post insulting.

If you think there is an issue about the vicar who comes in, then maybe it's worth having a chat with the school (your DSs teacher, or perhaps the head) to find out what their take on it is, how the visits fit into the school day, whether it counts as "collective worship" or RE or whatever. And then you can discuss how the school squares this with allowing children to opt out of practising religion.

Hopefully, they will be able to see your point and reassure you that he is not being permitted to "push" Christianity under the guise of educating about it.

ivy, obviously there was no insult intended, and if you take offence, there's not much I can do about. I'm certainly not offended!

As for being insulted by "belief system", I fail to see (a) why you would be and (b) how "belief system" doesn't describe both atheists and those who believe? The only people it doesn't describe is agnostics as they have yet to choose a position/remain open or ambivalent.

You clearly believe there is no God, and your belief is shaped and supported by various books/leading figures/scientific principles, I'm assuming? I'm also assuming that you don't just not believe in God without having investigated that belief in even the smallest way?

The reason these debates keep cropping up is because know one knows for certain - if one side could disprove the other, then it would have happened. You have faith as much as any religious person does - you just have faith that nothing exists.

Sorry to hijack the thread, btw, just wanted to answer ivy. Don't want to take away from what is the real issue here - whether or no DS is being unduly influenced at a non-religious school.

'So what if he came home tomorrow and told you he was going to be a Buddhist? It'll last all of 5 mins. And as he gets older he will be perfectly entitled to choose whatever faith or lack thereof he wants - that's what being an adult is about.'

Exactly-I really don't see the fuss. It is an interesting topic for discussion at home-nothing more.
One thing for sure is that they will make up their own mind! They don't think as teachers tell them and, as they get older, they don't think as parents think-and a good thing too!

Bring them up to question everything, including you,and there isn't a problem. They will think for themselves.
I think all this 'must be true because mummy/teacher/vicar says so' is laughable! They grow out of it by 7yrs.

..any Vicar or Priest telling a child they will go to Hell if not baptised is talking from his arse.
No way would our local priest say such a thing to anyone. In fact he was very supportive to a relative whose baby died before she could be baptised. My relative had heard all the same claptrap elsewhere and the Priest spent lots of time reassuring her that her baby was certainly NOT going to Hell for lack of Baptism. I don't know any Christian minister who would say different. Maybe in the past there was rubbish like this but not anymore.

Dilly, unfortunately while such things shouldn't happen they sometimes do - there was very recently a thread from someone whose child had been terrified of going to hell (in that case not a vicar but some organisation called CRIB (iirc) which makes it its business to go into schools and spout, apparently)

People are really way out of date-I am quite old for, MN but unbaptised babies not going to heaven was out even when I was young-I think it was a Victorian thing!
If anyone was talking about Hell in school I would go in and complain! (it wouldn't be a vicar)

I'm amazed that any grown-ups still believe in Hell, and shocked that anyone thinks it is right to tell a child they may go there.

I think that you will find they don't UnquietDad-if they invite 'dodgy' people into school you ned to ask questions.

nowaynohow
You believe there is no God, is what you tell me - this doesn't make sense, how can it be so? You are defining me by your own life and that is what I find insulting. You define other people who where born as themselves by you and what happens in your own mind.

religion needs to be taught as a lesson not affiliated with a school

ivy, I really don't understand your post at all, sorry! And I mean that in a literal sense, not in a "I don't get where you're coming from" sense. I genuinely don't know what you're trying to say? Please explain again!

Are you saying that I do or don't believe in God? Either way, I've not said in any of my posts what my own personal beliefs are - it's not really relevant is it? We're talking about enriching the lives of children by giving them knowledge about their world, and the people that make it up, and by teaching them tolerance of other people's beliefs.

I'm very now...

NoWay - we all agree about the necessity of teaching about knowledge and understanding of the world it's the practising from one of those viewpoints (Christianity) that we feel doesn't belong in non-church primary schools. Another thread recently said that the children say Grace before lunch. I'm still in about that. How would you know you needed to ask about that before you applied for a place? Bizarre.

I'm with you on that, hocus - if a school is non-church, it should be non-church. However, in the context of the OP, it really does sound like this was just an information share, rather than an indoctrination.

I'm sure there are many stories out the that , but this isn't one of them I don't think...

ivy, your post makes no sense at all!