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Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

537 replies

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 09/03/2011 15:44

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 13/03/2011 22:19

sorry -intended -Hmm

Himalaya · 13/03/2011 22:33

As NormanTebbit points out going to church can be great. People who go to church (or synagogue or mosque etc..) are not deluded in that they get benefits from it, it makes them feel good etc...

Of course most educated people (including vicars, religious scientists etc..) know that you can't take religious books and teachings literally. all this talk of God, prayers, miracles, heaven, devils etc... are just metaphors for something that actually is compatible with observed reality (and therefore not deluded).

As an atheist I do get this on one level, just as I get that model trains, orienteering and knitting are also fulfilling hobbies.

What I don't get is why, now that religion is basically a hobby, without a recognised claim to knowledge, truth or morality we still allow it so much air time in schools?

exoticfruits · 13/03/2011 22:44

We keep going around in circles-you have to understand our history(back to Henry VIII) and the education acts to understand why schools are not secular.

NormanTebbit · 13/03/2011 22:53

Bunbaker: come to Glasgow and you will see what segregating children from the age of 4 according to their parents' religion, Catholic or Protestant, does to the community. And ask again why I am opposed to faith schools.

Ripeberry · 13/03/2011 22:57

Just be glad you are not in America where they teach 'Creationism' Now that is seriously.....BONKERS!

Himalaya · 13/03/2011 22:58

Exoticfruits -history that explains how we got to this situation, but not why we should stay in it.

exoticfruits · 13/03/2011 22:58

I think that Glasgow and NI shows why there should be no faith schools

exoticfruits · 13/03/2011 23:00

It shows Himalaya that schools can't just change it. You need to join the secular society and separate church and state first-history explains why. It exists because people moan and do nothing constructive.

Himalaya · 13/03/2011 23:36

Exoticfruits -How do you know that people do not support the NSS and BHA, sign petitions and write to their MP?

Bitching and moaning is also part of creating a movement. I bet the suffragists did loads of it!

gooseberrybushes · 14/03/2011 03:38

I think the use of language is important, and calmer language on this issue enables more constructive debate.

"Superstitious crap peddling, I don't give a toss, defensive godders sitting around bored, ffs, bigotry like this: "The people who make the biggest fuss about wanting legal protection for their superstitions ie blasphemy laws, are usually the ones who are up to no good (like abusing women and children or fiddling their taxes) and want to silece their critics.", pile of rubbish, bollocks" and so on, are provocative.

As the thread was started in this vein, there has certainly been a defensive response from some! But generally the response has been forgiving and mild, considering the provocative terms in which it was begun.

However there are others on the thread who are able to engage without resorting to this sort of approach and the attempted belittling of one's co-debatees which so often accompanies it.

gooseberrybushes · 14/03/2011 03:59

Anyway that's by the bypass.

My view would be that I understand demands for secularity in education. Although I think of all the pressing problems that assault the education system in the UK, to focus on this as the one to be outraged about is imbalanced.

But, fair enough, some people do think it's the most important.

I suppose most people want their belief system to be the dominant one. I wouldn't want evangelical Christianity, or Catholicism, or Islam, and certainly not Hindiusm, seen as the inspiration of our civil and moral codes.

But Christians feel defensive because some religions are more forceful and demanding, and they fear that a move to secularity would mean a move to dominance by other religions.

I think now, at this stage, there could be benefits to secularity. Protestant Christianity has been for many years a deeply tolerant
faith which does its best to accommodate changes in social morees and to examine itself and change accordingly. I get the feeling that the version expressed through schools is seen as dull and pointless by its opponents, rather than harmful.

Unfortunately legal requirements to equality mean that other religions, which are less dull and harmless, claim religious immunity in education. It all becomes rather separatist and dangerous.

Protection of the freedom to wear symbols of faith mean, for example, that the Christian can wear a silver cross: but the Sikh can carry a kirpan.

It's possible that Christians might begin to feel that a move towards secularity could actually protect their faith, by tamping down protection for the fires of extremism in other religions.

But while debate is continued in the terms outlined in the OP - and while people of faith are continually belittled as unable to think clearly - Christians, and many non-Christians, will instinctively feel defensive. And to be honest, in my case, take the "other side" less seriously, because of the refusal to even attempt to understand what might motivate us.

gooseberrybushes · 14/03/2011 04:42

I would include deeply evangelical, possibly what used to be called "born again" Christianity there, too. It feels separatist when you talk to one.

Bunbaker · 14/03/2011 06:48

"In my experience, people resort to the terms thrown my way like "ranting", "rubbish", "hobby-horse", "threatening", "infantile", etc., when they have simply run out of arguments and don't know where to go. This always happens when arguing with the religious - ultimately they simply have no argument other than "we're right"."

UnqiuetDad
Erm, isn't that exactly what you are doing? I don't think I am right and you are wrong at all. All I ask is that you stop deriding my point of view.

"As NormanTebbit points out going to church can be great. People who go to church (or synagogue or mosque etc..) are not deluded in that they get benefits from it, it makes them feel good etc...

Of course most educated people (including vicars, religious scientists etc..) know that you can't take religious books and teachings literally. all this talk of God, prayers, miracles, heaven, devils etc... are just metaphors for something that actually is compatible with observed reality (and therefore not deluded)."

Himalaya
Hooray. Someone who talks sense. I have a rational and logical way of thinking and that is exactly how I view Christianity.

"Bunbaker: come to Glasgow and you will see what segregating children from the age of 4 according to their parents' religion, Catholic or Protestant, does to the community. And ask again why I am opposed to faith schools."

NormanTebbit
Under those circumstances I quite agree. It seems that they just continue to foster hatred and intolerance. I was speaking from my little sheltered life where faith schools round where I live are simply the odd Catholic school in an area where all the rest are secular.

exoticfruits · 14/03/2011 08:16

Himalaya -if everyone was doing something, instead of moan, then changes would be made. As it is, faith schools are over subscribed. I for one, although think things could be changed and collective worship removed, am not bothered by it-certainly not enough to sign petitions, write to MPs etc.
According to UnquietDad, who thinks don't need to judge him on this thread because he has written sensibly in the past Confused,it comes up a lot and I would bet the majority have a moan but have never done anything constructive! (not all-some will do more)

exoticfruits · 14/03/2011 08:17

Sorry-missed out the I (who thinks I don't need to judge him)

hocuspontas · 14/03/2011 08:23

I agree with gooseberry. I think Christianity would be stronger if non-faith schools were secular. The nod towards Christianity in primary assemblies up and down the country just conjures up a wishy-washy benign default religion that tries to please all. Perhaps the churches could have after-school bible classes in the church hall for parents wishing for their children to have a better insight.

exoticfruits · 14/03/2011 08:38

Good idea hocuspontas-but it will take an act of Parliament.

UnquietDad · 14/03/2011 09:19

I could cope with the idea that religion is basically a weekend "pastime" like golf which makes people feel good about themselves, so they're not deluded in that sense, and that the language used is basically metaphor. Of course it is. So why do I never meet religious people who think this way? For them, it is a way of life and God is real.

I've never met a single Christian in real life who was happy to entertain the idea that God might be a human construct or a metaphor.

exoticfruits · 14/03/2011 09:31

Variety is the spice of life UnquietDad-why does it bother you? Of course God is central to life for a true Christian. Respect their views-no one is asking you to do more.

'I could cope with the idea that religion is basically a weekend "pastime" like golf '

Do you need to 'cope' with it? I don't think they are asking your permission or looking for approval-in fact I don't think they could care less that you don't 'cope' with it!

Why the need to have everyone think the same?

gooseberrybushes · 14/03/2011 09:48

I don't think anyone was saying what you suggest they're saying, about religion being like golf.

That's a good point about faith schools being oversubscribed.

ivykaty44 · 14/03/2011 09:55

exoticfruits - respect there views is fine - but they do keep asking for more and that is the crux of the problem, you don't seem to get that part, over and again it has been pointed out to you why it is a problem - you ignore those points Sad.

Our local faith schools are not over subscribed - quite the opposite for both junior and secondary, the local secondary RC secondary school is not as good as the other three local state schools and we don't have a grammer school in a 12 mile radius. The CofE junior and infants is nearly at the bottom of the local league tables and no one would choose it over the none church school down the road which is full up and in the top 5 of the county.

UnquietDad · 14/03/2011 10:04

Old Einstein said it all:

"The word 'god' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this."

UnquietDad · 14/03/2011 10:08

Faith schools are over-subscribed because they tend to be the "better" ones and those into which the aspiring middle-classes want to get their children - because they are self-selecting and self-perpetuating to be like this. Nothing to do with their goddiness.

(Someone inevitably pops us and talks about theirs which isn't like this. Doesn't change the basic truth.)

Himalaya · 14/03/2011 10:08

exoticfruits - I agree people should do more - both supporting national campaigns and talking to their school and LEA about their RE and DaoW policies (there is quite a lot of discretion at local level about how the legislation is applied).

But conversations like this are quite useful for people to see that they are not being unreasonable in their concern and shouldn't be silenced by the 'its no big deal' attitude which prevails

You seemed to be telling people to stop moaning and go through the proper channels, rather than to keep moaning and go through the proper channels!

UnquietDad · 14/03/2011 10:09

Is there any good reason why all schools can't be secular?

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