Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

Ho ho ho. Terribly funny. Again I refer you to my friends the Personified Cooking Implements. I find them terribly useful.

Actually, I have quoted no evidence that "the outrage is prevalent" at all. If you read what I actually said, I was referring to statistics about who is a Christian and who isn't. My "outrage" is mine alone, but it is shared by a lot of people. A lot of people who haven't had their consciousness raised about this issue don't really see it as a problem yet. I imagine that includes those with very young children. I didn't, particularly, see it as a major issue before my children started school.

I have yet to see any evidence at all for why we should teach religious belief as fact in schools, any more than we should teach Flat Earth-ism.

(Is it Sunday afternoon? Sunday afternoon always brings the Defensive Godders out. I think they are sitting around bored between Matins and Evensong.)

Well given that you have had to 'shop around' as it were (nothing wrong with that, my father did the same because he wanted his sermons to be academically rigorous rather than warm and fuzzy) to find an approach you like (although how sad that even so acceptance is so limited a blind eye must be a part of the deal) I'm not sure why you can't understand why those of us who did our homework, avoided the religious schools and thought we found a school with an ethos we agreed with are then annoyed to find a totally unknown vicar in a position of significant authority telling our children things we fundamentally disagree with as a matter of fact?

I'm not 'very angry', ill informed or 'worked up'. Half of my family are quite devoutly Christians (my sister is a vicar and my BIL is training to be one too). My other BI is Jewish, I studied Islam at university and my mother taught Religious Studies.

I just think that vicars should not be giving small children religious instruction without explicit permission from their parents.

What's funny? Why do you have to get so agitato?

Nooka, you know you have a point there. Evangelism is on the rise and unlike you I do think it's a defensive posture. Again, no evidence. I don't accuse you of being angry, ill-informed or worked up.

Partly a defensive posture.

Nothing "agitato" about repsonding with some facts. The alternative, which I assume you'd like, is just to shrug, say "Oh, I expect you're right then" and bugger off?

Christians sometimes need to be reminded they've had jam on it for a bit too long.

All this talk of superstition makes me laugh. Some one decides it is superstition-fine-but they seem to have the urge to think that because they think this everyone should.
'The world according to unquiet dad' -surprisingly we don't all want to follow!
Everyone is free to make up their own mind-including your own DCs and peoiple should treat it with respect. I respect the idea that you think it is nonsense but NOT that you have decided for your DCs, all school age DCs and the universe!

Nooka I think your posts are interesting. Must go now.

And we wonder why bigotry, intolerance and bullying is on the rise amongst our children!

"Bigotry, intolerance and bullying" has never been present among a Christian community has it

exoticfruits - I fear the point goes this way

->

And you go this

No but it seems to be raising it's head here.

My last message was in response to RiceTart

UD I agree with gooseberry - you appear somewhat agitated.

You have also taken the trouble to copy and paste a comment she made onto another thread in order to mock her.

Unpleasant.

I decided at about 10yrs that my father had rather infantile views on religion UnquietDad and I suspect that your DCs may think the same of you.
Br sure of one thing-you can't tell them what to think-it doesn't work that way. They may at least like a philosophical debate, even at 5 yrs old,rather than Dad ranting on his hobby horse with no respect for other views.

"But a very large (growing) number of people - a minority or a small majority, depending on which skewed stats you believe - would rather we didn't have to lead our lives based on the edicts of any ancient text and imaginary being at all."

Given that the laws of the land are based on You shall not murder and You shall not steal - two of the ten commandments, that is a little rich.

gooseberrybushes
I also go to a "middle stump" church. My last church was the same. The vicar is a bit of a laugh and not at all fire and brimstone. I suspect that people who think churches are like this have probably not set foot in a church for many years.

UnquietDad
Would you also call a Muslim or a Hindu deluded?

I know people who believe in mediums and astrology, but I don't go around calling them deluded. Why can't people just accept that some people have a faith and respect them for that? I respect people for either having a different faith or no faith at all so why the need to feel superior?

AbigailS
Spot on

Not sure why you think UnquietDad might be ranting at his children. Most of us participate in debates on the internet (yes sometimes using strong language) that we don't really have the opportunity or inclination to do elsewhere.

I don't for example have religious conversations with the religious people in my family if I can at all help it. My children know their parent's views. dd claims Christianity (bloody Father Christopher ) whilst ds is happy with his unbelief. I'm sure they will grow, learn and experience in the years ahead, and their viewpoints will be their own, as they should be.

Bunbaker why should I respect other people's faith? I don't expect to be respected for having none. In fact I know it causes my parents and sister great concern, although like many other religious people I have spoken to they seem highly confident that at some point I will find the light. Which is a little annoying (and not very respectful - I don't tell them I expect in the fullness of time they will lose their faith after all).

I think respect is a slightly odd term to throw into the mix anyway. I love my family, I understand that their faith is very very important to them. But to me it does appear to be a delusion, because to me 'god' is a meaningless construct. When they tell me that god spoke to them I am puzzled, not respectful, and if what they are saying god said is in my opinion destructive (women are equal but different, gay people are OK so long as they don't actually follow their desires etc) then I am angry because they are promoting bigotry. That is not something I can accept and certianly don't hold as worthy of respect.

Regarding don't kill and don't steal. There is nothing uniquely Christian about either concept. They are required for any communal living to work, and can be found as principles in many sets of rules from many parts of the world, Christian or not. That is the sort of statement that really irritates as it implies that you need Christianity in order to be good - as if it wasn't for god we'd all have killed each other off eons ago.

I got a free pass to come back for a min.

"Christians sometimes need to be reminded they've had jam on it for a bit too long."

What exactly does this mean, I wonder. It's very bitter, almost vengeful. It's sounds threatening. Is that just me though.

Also I would say, I do respect atheist and agnostic thought. People have generally considered it deeply if they declare themselves atheist.

I don't respect the view that atheists and agnostics have a monopoly on reason and an entitlement to ridicule.

Maybe that's just me as well.

If UquietDad is saying the same rubbish that he is on here I would call it a rant. Hopefully he doesn't do it at home. He is entitled to his belief, but he seems to think that any intelligent person would think the same. Faith is nothing to do with intelligence-many eminent scientists have a faith.

Luckily you can't decide for your DCs. I have a friend who had a very religious upbringing and rejected it entirely. She wouldn't go near a church with her DCs and spouted views about imaginary friends. He DS is now at university-all his social life is through the Scripture Union and the local evangelical church. I see nothing wrong with this-his mother had free choice and rejected religion and he had the same free choice and embraced it. Very healthy-the way it should be.

I am an atheist and I am vehemently opposed to faith schools.

But I would say that churches provide much support for community - toddler groups are in churches, coffee mornings for folk, food for the homeless etc. There is a sense of belonging and community in the congregations I have visited. To the point that I wish I believed it - but I don't.

"Bunbaker why should I respect other people's faith? I don't expect to be respected for having none."

I don't expect the faith to be respected, just people. There is no need to ridicule people because they do believe in God. I don't see why you shouldn't be respected for not having a faith either. I don't agree with the church's view on gay people, but IMO it shouldn't preclude me from being a Christian just because I am not homophobic.

"I am an atheist and I am vehemently opposed to faith schools."

Why? You don't have to send your children there. I agree with your other points though.

gooseberrybushes Good points.

In my experience, people resort to the terms thrown my way like "ranting", "rubbish", "hobby-horse", "threatening", "infantile", etc., when they have simply run out of arguments and don't know where to go. This always happens when arguing with the religious - ultimately they simply have no argument other than "we're right".

My position has always been consistent. I've set out my views on the teaching of religious myth in schools many, many times before, with evidence, examples, etc., etc., ad nauseam. It's just that there appear to be some people on here who haven't ever engaged with me before and don't seem familiar with it. No matter. I'm happy to be on the side of logic and sense, even when others are not.

JoBettany - you make it sound as if the quoting was a propos of nothing. As I'm sure you know really, it was in a thread entitled "What ways have you found to tell posters they're being a cock but without getting your post deleted?" i.e. one specifically designed for that purpose. And without naming names.

If I haven't engaged with you before I can hardly be expected to know that you are generally sensible and logical! (not from this thread [hmm)