Superstitious crap-peddling in non-church school, how to deal with it?

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

DS (6, in Year 1) came home from school today talking about what he's going to give up for Lent. I asked him if he understood why he was supposed to be giving up things for Lent (of course he had no idea) and made sure he knew that he didn't have to and I would be doing no such thing, and we had a little talk about superstitions.
I am seriously pissed off with this and want to speak to the school about it. We live in a very multicultural area and I want to know A) if all the 6 year old Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and whatever else are trotting home stuffed with this crap and if not, how can I get DS exempt from it? Just because we are English does not mean we are CofE, I am a hardline atheist and DS dad and I have been raising him with as little superstition as possible.
I do not think it's appropriate for a group of culturally-mixed 6 year olds to be fed this sort of bullshit (which is going to be beyond most of them anyway) - I have no problem with DC being taught about the various mythology brands but the actual practicing of this nonsense should not be suggested to them at school.

Religion isn't a personal and private thing though - at least in Christianity there is a strong 'go and spread the word' edict. The priest/vicar was visiting the school essentially to evangelise, it is a fundamental part of their role. And if you have dedicated your life to your faith to the extent of becoming a priest then your faith is incredibly important to you and something you want to spread because you think that it will immeasurably improve the lives of those you bring to the faith.

It is disingenuous to suggest that it is just a matter of telling nice stories (and there are as many or more fairly terrible stories in the bible). Plus I've yet see a thread saying that the local imam or rabbi has given an assembly at a non faith school.

Finally I have experienced a priest talking extensively about hell, as all I can really remember of sermons as a child (before I learned how to switch off and daydream instead) is the gnashing of teeth bits. When I was at university some of my friends were seriously affected by the local church telling them they were all very immoral and damned because they were even thinking about sex. Oh, and the amount of pain caused by my parents being CoE / Catholic was what fundamentally made me decide that religion (not necessarily faith) was a bad thing, plus the deaths in Northern Ireland and the sexism of both Catholicism and Anglicanism.

I really don't think that religion is benign, either at an individual or at a community level. The original messages might have been about love or mercy, but I think that got lost/swamped by other things a long long time ago.

I've never said 'because I said so' to my children, which is why I was so annoyed when dd said she believed in God, Jesus etc 'because Father Christopher said so'.

nooka
I can see your point of view given your experiences. What religion were you brought up with? I am C of E and have been to services in a number of C of E churches and have never yet heard a fire and brimstone/gnashing of teeth/be damned in hell kind of service. They just don't preach this kind of stuff in C of E churches, not when I was a child and especially not nowadays. Churches have falling attendances and need to be able to appeal to the younger generation. Our church has a thriving youth group led by the vicar who is absolutely brilliant with children. The type of preaching you have experienced would frighten the children away and, as you have rightly pointed out, is very counterproductive.

No, I am not better, I just have superior logic ; )

See I would be happy about about a secular school telling dc that god was dubious every week - in the same way I am not happy about schooling now where they have assembly every week and bring in this god and talk about god. To me it is the same thing, you are telling the children over and over again the same thing week in and week out until the dc think it is normal.

That is why it would be in my opinion it would be great to leave religion out of the education system in assemblies and only teach about religion in the same way that geography, history (yes I do know a just a little bit about history )P.E is taught.

I think there are some fantastic vicars out there and some fab church goers - I can't understand why they want to do what they but that doesn't effect them. I also know a couple of people that have told me they escaped from religion and god and are firmly neutral now and happy.

Nooka

I don't think religion is benign either. For many it is just a load of nice stories with a strong moral message. They send their child to a faith school because of it's 'family values' and 'morality.'

My six year old is already fascinated by religion, which is fine. She gas been to a Protestant church, Sikh temple and mosque with her school.

She hasn't been to a Catholic church nor has her school been visited by a priest. I wonder why that is.

Actually I quite liked the fire and brimstone, it was quite theatrical I was brought up Catholic (it was a requirement of my parents marriage in a Catholic church that my mother had to sign us away). Although the most toxic preaching I've heard was from a 'normal' Anglican vicar, and the most off putting congregation was my sister's very evangelical church - getting backed into corners by earnest people asking if you 'have been saved' was almost scary, and this was before I lost my faith!

NT I think it's all about the connections the school has, and how welcoming and engaged the local priests/imams etc are. I think it's great that your dd has visited different places of worship, and I agree with her religion is fascinating.

My mother used to teach RS at secondary school and took her classes to churches, mosques, temples and synagogues. I know it took her a while to build up all the connections to make that happen. She is personally religious, but also interested in other faiths and how many hold congruent views at their heart. I always found it interesting that she thought this was about the universality of God whereas I take it as to do with human needs and psychology.

I didn't say telling them about Moses was "brainwashing". In fact I feel that DS should know about the bible stories for historical and cultural reasons. He should also know about all sorts of faiths on the same basis. I had a head teacher at my private primary who was staunch CofE, we did the Lord's prayer every morning, sang carols almost non-stop and I enjoyed it all until I was around 14. I read masses of history and politics books (inspired by a brilliantly clever history teacher) and then I changed my mind about politics and religion. I read and read and devoured it all, no one stopped me. I had a choice.

I wouldn't dream of pulling DS out of RE classes, as it would single him out and make him into a freak in the eyes of the ever so holier than thou parents at his school. He is at a very white middle class state school. I would much rather he joined in until he is old enough to understand things more clearly.

I got all the logic and "balance" I needed in secondary schools, by my father and my excellent history teachers. My mum was a very spiritual Christian. I called the priest for her as she lay on her death bed in hospital. It is the best thing I could have done for my dying mother, it is what she would have wanted, not what I wanted.

I am incredibly flexible. I take DS to church for a few minutes whenever I can to light candles for her in church. I told him his grandmother (whom he sadly can't remember as he was a todder when she died) liked going to church and listening to the lovely music. He has asked me many times whether she is in heaven (a word he has learned at school), and I said "if there is one, she is definitely there".

I think I am incredibly flexible with my son for an atheist !

The thing is I was able to choose because no one "brainwashed" me either way. DS will also be given the chance to choose. Some kids, sadly, NEVER get the choice at all. That is the danger. I am with Dawkins on this.

I have a Muslim student in my class at the college where I teach who says "Miss, you are such a lovely, caring teacher, how can you be an atheist ?"

Amazing how MORALITY and HUMANITY are mixed in with being religious. I told her you didn't need to be religious to be a GOOD person. Clearly it's a concept which is quiet alien to her and the way she has been brought up.

I don't think for one minute that she says it because she is a Muslim. The same comment could easily have come from a Christian or Jew or Sikh or Hindu. I think that kind of brainwashing is quite disturbing. It isn't even her fault, she has been brought up by schools in her own country and her parents who have told her such things.

The idea that you can only be good, be saved, go to heaven, etc if you comply with the standards of some special group of people and their god or gods.

Exoticfruits - CofE schools still can and do discriminate in employment on religious grounds.

Droves - what a bad story. I thought all children could be withdrawn from RE?

I expect they do Himalaya, but the one that I know stopped because they were missing the best candidates.

I have to smile at the thought of IvyKate having a big sign at the school gate 'God is dubious'! (sorry IvyKate-it just conjures up a picture for me!)It would make a change from 'God is Love'!

While we are on the subject...

How frightening/annoying is it that

THIS

can exist?

I mean, creationist "theory" FFS. Let's have links to the Gooseberry Bush Theory in the chapter on birth, shall we?

I?ve watched this thread in horror for some time. OK ? so we all disagree on the topic of religion. But we are adults and need to set an example to our children; bitching and name calling is unacceptable. How can we expect tolerance and respect for others if we don?t lead by example, and if we don?t have some understanding about others? beliefs (hence RE lessons). We have to acknowledge that we will never all agree and schools have a variety of parental views. Having said that, schools have no option but to provide RE lessons and assemblies that follow government legislation. They are expected to have ?community links? hence input from the local church. The issues of broadly Christian and assemblies are a legal requirement. Many heads are not Christian, but follow legislation, because to follow their own conscience risks major implications for them, the staff and the school.

IMO, in reply to OP and all the other parents it really comes down to four choices:

1. put up with the school?s inputs that differ from your opinion and counteract it by sensible discussion at home,
2. home educate, then choose what you teach and leave out
3. opt your child out of all RE and assemblies ? but don?t be hypocritical and opt back in to events, for example nativities because you enjoy seeing your child on stage and they look cute
4. write to your MP to express your opinion that RE and assemblies should be removed from state schools, as it will take an act of parliament to remove them.

Is anyone watching the Big Question?

No, what did I miss?

There was a discussion about faith schools and teaching faith in schools in general. One of the contributors was Hardeep Singh Kohli who said his parents sent him to a catholic school because they believed it was good he learnt about other religions ...

Thanks.
I agree it's important to learn about other religions, but it must be taught X's believe ... in non-religious schools.

"The people who make the biggest fuss about wanting legal protection for their superstitions ie blasphemy laws, are usually the ones who are up to no good (like abusing women and children or fiddling their taxes) and want to silece their critics."

What an extraordinarily bigoted statement.

I don't believe children should be given information about faith as if it is an accepted fact in any school it always needs to be tempered with the "some believe this but others don't" factor but neither do I believe that exposure to this will corrupt a child for life. Both my children have said they want me to tick the "no religion" box on the census form so collective worship has had no influence on them as far as joining an organised religion.

It has no influence at all on mine. I shall tick Christian, but I fully expect mine to tick 'no religion'.

why would I even bother to try and plant a seed of doubt, its up to you to decide what you want to not take notice of someone with a banner, being neutral is fine but I have no desire to get anyone else to stay neutral, not even my off spring

I have to teach RE, and hate it-all that 'x believes' bollocks is always unqualified for good stuff (Christians believe in loving each other) and then not for bad stuff (secondary school becomes 'some Christians don't believe in gay people loving each other'). It doesn't really serve any agenda at all: it doesn't reflect a poly-cultural society because it's all so vague and inaccurate, nor allow proper engagement with the stories and practices because everything is mediated through belief and won't allow sociological readings, and as for ethics P4C kicks RE's arse.

Yet, fundamentally, if he doesn't understand why, then he hasn't been 'indoctrinated', he's just had a discussion about self-denial prompted in a slightly odd way. Surely, he'll have to cope with this living in a christian (if not, mercifully, a Christian) society? Isn't this really no different to him asking if he can have a hot cross bun?

People do hate Christianity more and more it seems.

Adela I agree.

Do come and join us on the Is RE a waste of time? thread (or anyone interested in the debate beyond SGB's particular example