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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Phonics

163 replies

benito · 19/02/2011 10:55

There was an interesting thread on phonics on here the other day. I then saw this piece on the BBC website and wondered what people thought.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12509477

I absolutely see the importance of phonics but I do have a great deal of sympathy with the view that teaching phonics should not be conflated with the teaching of reading itself.

My 5 year old now attempts to decode every word he sees, even those he knows, and even when he can see from the picture (or would if he lifted his head from pressing his 'magic sounds finger' against every letter/sound) what the word should be.

What are the views of our experts out there?

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MizzMizz · 23/02/2011 11:42

I think the best way you can help your child is by encouraging them to enjoy books and reading. A basic understanding of phonics and how reading is taught in school can help to reinforce what they learn at school, but don't get hung-up on it. If your child concentrates on the pictures and uses these as clues - so what? If they are enjoying it, let them! Enjoying reading is one of life's greatest pleasures and if you can give your child this, the rest will follow.

Mashabell · 23/02/2011 11:49

Most children don't use pictures to guess words.

They use them as aids to access words which they get stuck on because of their phonically irregular spellings.

MizzMizz · 23/02/2011 11:52

That's what they are supposed to do - what they actually do is different in my experience (reading with my own children).

GotArt · 23/02/2011 17:31

Mrz... they use them as aids... not guessing. I'm thinking that a lot of the time, when a child 'panics' at not knowing what a word is, it has more to do with the pressure that child is feeling from the adult who is teaching them to read.

Panzee... there is a difference between looking and seeing. We look at words to read; we see the world around us and infer meaning.

MizzMizz... I agree. The rest will follow. Each child has a different way to learn. Some are terrible at reading but numbers come naturally.

mrz · 23/02/2011 17:39

Interestingly I think when a child panics it's because someone has told them to look at the picture if they are stuck and when they do the answer isn't there and they just don't know what to do next ...
GotArt Wed 23-Feb-11 17:31:23
We look at words to read interesting idea that but it will never catch on ... just look at the pictures

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 17:48

"My worry is that (from what I have come to understand of it) synthetic phonics reduces reading to a Gradgrind empty vessel activity, where children are limited by the information they have been given, not encouraged to draw on a variety of sources to push their reading forward, and have the message that these strange colour coded books are what they read, and progress can only be made on a lesson by lesson basis."

I do have a bit of sympathy with this viewpoint, as it something that I observe among the DCs of some of my friends - children a little older than my own DD - who do "reading" at school as a phonics activity, and "reading" at home, which involves their highly-educated parents reading masses of quite difficult books to them. The DCs have no incentive to read to themselves because the books their parents read to them are so much more interesting.

mrz · 23/02/2011 18:04

but it shouldn't be like that for small children and it isn't in good reception and Y1 classes.

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 18:14

mrz - I agree that it is a far from ideal scenario, but I see how it happens and it does, to some extent, happen with my DD.

We received instructions from her class teachers to re-read her phonics book from school over the holidays. I have not done this, but sent her off ski-ing with her father and brothers with several of those Je commence à lire Martine books; she just about read the whole of one to herself a couple of weeks ago and I hope that, with nothing else to read and no DVDs (she doesn't "do" TV, fortunately) she will read the Martine books to her father.

mrz · 23/02/2011 18:22

With respect bonsoir I don't think that quite matches
"My worry is that (from what I have come to understand of it) synthetic phonics reduces reading to a Gradgrind empty vessel activity, where children are limited by the information they have been given, not encouraged to draw on a variety of sources to push their reading forward, and have the message that these strange colour coded books are what they read, and progress can only be made on a lesson by lesson basis."

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 18:25

Why not? All school ever does is teach my DD phonics from a text book - no real books are ever to be seen . We obviously have a huge library of real books at home, but she prefers me to read a difficult book to her rather than read an easy to herself, and that is partly because she has a poor association between the technical skill of reading as learned at school, and her nascent ability to enjoy books by herself. I think school ought to read stories to the children and encourage them to read stories to themselves (they advise against this).

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 18:26

Unsurprisingly, she prefers to read to herself in English rather than in French, even though she is technically a much better reader in French.

mrz · 23/02/2011 18:42

That is very different from being asked to re-read her book over half term which is what I based my response on. However that is not what happens in English schools Bonsoir and not what you would see in any reception classroom. Children have access to hundreds of high quality story books to look at and share with staff and friends. They will take home lovely stories for parents to read to/with them and are encouraged to develop an interest in all kinds of sources of literature whether it is a story book, magazine or non fiction book. In my school we believe in all children having five a day stories that is and books are an important part of the continuous provision ... magazines in the home corner ... information books outdoors ... books about buildings in the block play ... recipe books in the cafe area ... books about art in the creative area and a huge collection of books in the quiet area with couches and floor cushions for children to just sit and read.
All children receive a book from the staff as a gift at Christmas and at the end of the school year because we want to instil a love of books and reading.

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 18:46

mrz - what you describe is obviously how I think it should be - and what I do with my DD in English (where she is privately tutored in phonics and I do lots of reading, spelling, writing with her).

mrz · 23/02/2011 18:56

and despite the doom and gloom it is happening in schools all over the UK.

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 18:59

mrz - I am quite convinced that English primary schools generally buy and promote the importance of literacy! What I have to try to do is to take the best of what my DD's French school does (and it does do some things very well, better than most English schools) and then add in the best of what the best English schools do. So I spend a lot of time analysing the strengths and weaknesses in both countries!

mrz · 23/02/2011 19:11

Literacy has a very high status in the UK and access to high quality books is very much part of that.
I think it has long been a criticism of phonics that children aren't allowed books but it simply isn't the case.

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 19:41

Surely we can agree that it is, however, possible to encounter situations (in the UK or elsewhere) where children are taught the technical skill of reading through phonics very efficiently without any attempt to arouse a love of books/literature?

That is not a criticism of phonics at all, but a quite real danger of over emphasis by a school/system on the technical side of literacy. I would say that that is my criticism of what my DD (in what is a "good" primary school) is encountering. She has beautiful handwriting, takes almost perfect dictation, learns poems regularly by heart etc but there is no contact with real books and no creative writing at all in French at school.

mrz · 23/02/2011 19:46

I think there is always that danger when people don't understand why they are doing something and obviously the reason for learning to read is to gain access to the world of books.

skiphopskidaddle · 23/02/2011 19:46

My DS1 is guessing words. Today he looked at the words "Peter ran and ran" on a Peter Rabbit mug and read "Rabbit ran and ran". Yesterday he was reading something about banging a gong and glanced down at the picture and "read" the word drum instead of gong. He is being encouraged to guess by his school. He is being given Ginn books, with the odd ORT, which include words that he couldn't possibly decode at his level. Phrases like "Mum put on big eyebrows". "Where is the castle?".

So Masha and GotArt, I don't think the pictures are helping him to read. They're helping him to guess, and teaching him that it's ok to look at the first letter or two and then wing it for the rest. If he carries on doing this, he's going to be stuck when he doesn't have pictures. I'm actually pretty annoyed at his school for this.

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 19:48

mrz - I fear that in the French educational system children are taught to read in order to become efficient economic producers and consumers

mrz · 23/02/2011 19:56

My class know how much I love reading and eagerly await Monday morning to see what I've bought (I'm a bookaholic)
so excuse me but I don't think there many better gifts you can give a child than the ability to read.

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 20:01

mrz - I agree with you, and I am at this very moment grappling with our books, which I have taken out of the bookcases and loaded all around my dining room while I sort them - the piles grow and find their way into the bookcases but not in any kind of retrievable way. So having a good old sort out, which is inevitably very slow as I keep rediscovering books and having to take a peek.

mrz · 23/02/2011 20:06

I've bought 10 books so far this week ... with 4 more in my Amazon basket

Bonsoir · 23/02/2011 20:48

I've just ordered 13 items (books and period drama DVDs) from Amazon and I already have an order on the way . We do a lot of book lending in my family so I don't feel too guilty - everything gets read and viewed multiple times.

GotArt · 23/02/2011 21:49

Mrz... we look at words to read... yes it has caught on... its known theory of art on how we see and look. Read some James Elkins or John Berger. Brilliant art theoretical writers on how we see and infer meaning.

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