What the blinking flip do I do now?

[IngridBergmann]

I had my last thread deleted because I know the other mum uses MN too, and though I really needed the advice I thought it disrespectful to leave it in the public domain iyswim.

Anyway...I have come up against a brick wall, and I hope she doesn't mind my posting for some more advice because it seems we have the HT from hell, who is determined to undermine me at every turn and is very good at talking bollocks.

Just to catch up, ds and another boy have been in the same class for 2 and a half years. The other boy has an ASD.

Throughout this period of time they have had a very intense relationship which has caused problems - the other child requires a great deal of reassurance and has taken to following my son around demanding answers, crying or at times physically restraining him. My son does not fight back, he tries very hard to make the other boy feel better.

As a result he has suffered from symptoms such as sleeplessness, aggression (out of the blue, out of character and always directly after school - repeating phrases the other boy is known to use, which make little sense in the context) and an aversion to answering questions and being 'controlled' as he puts it. I didn't know what was causing all this until last summer when it became apparent there was a big problem with the other boy.

School have known about it since yr1, I was not told, and only started realisng there were some issues between them in yr2, but school still did very little. Yr3 has been the worst and the symptoms got severe.

I have kept in good contact with the other child's mum and she is brilliant, she knows him well obviously, and we agree the boys need separating. But school isn't doing it properly.

They keep assuring us that they never are together in class, never play together, and finally last month they got in a specialist after I talked about moving schools, but he's only recommended a circle of friends system and it appears not to be doing much.

He has no statement, and according to his mum the school advised her against it in reception.
I can't believe their attitude.

They keep telling me it is all fine now, then it became clear it wasn't, various incidents of the boy continuing to upset ds, being told they weren't together at playtime when they both told us they were etc.

So school revised their platitudes and now are saying it will get worse before it gets better - the other child is apparently reacting as though it were a 'divorce', and is angry and confused, which impacts on everyone. It's not his fault; he can't help it.

So I asked if we could take ds out of school for a few weeks till half term, to give the new system the best chance of working, ie 'cold turkey' rather than them always having to avoid each other, which they can't.

Spoke to parent governor yesterday, and he thought it was an excellent idea. As do several other people in my family including teachers/people who worked with ASD children and know their stuff.

However the HT refuses to authorise it. She says it will 'not resolve, but postpone' the problem. I wrote back saying I did not see how, given that the boys are being kept apart - how can it impact on the other child's 'conversion' into his new friendship circle, if my son isn't around - I'd have thought it would help him to as the temptation wouldn't be there.

She said that they are monitored throughout the day and are not together in lessons.
Yesterday my son told me that during PE. the other boy was very upset, crying loudly, and the teacher walked over (not their class teacher, but the same one they have at least once a week) and asked what was wrong, but my son said 'I will help sort out []' and the teacher said 'Ok' and walked off!

Ds said he felt like crying himself, he can't bear it when the other boy cries, but he didn't cry as he wanted the other boy to stop. He managed eventually to placate him.

In my view this contradicts directly what the HT said, firsly that they are not working together in class, and secondly that they are being monitored and the teachers will take charge of any incident where the other boy is distressed.

I'm fuming that this happened, yet again, and I feel I'm in an impossible position because if I send ds to school he's effectively being used by them as a carer for the other child, and if I don't, I will either have to formally remove him from the school roll,(role?) or to risk a penalty notice for absence.
the HT had the absolute cheek to suggest that if we didn't have faith in the school and trust them to do as they said, we were welcome to go to a different school.

I've emailed back in a very stern manner, but what else can I do - I'm exhausted, I tried emailing the chair of governors but he hasn't replied, and I suspect he will take her side anyway.

I don't want to move ds, I just want to take a couple of weeks to make a proper decision and not subject him to the mess this is while they sort out their own 'teething troubles' with the new system.

Any advice really gratefully received.

I would take him to your GP and get him signed off school for a few weeks due to stress (he genuinely sounds very stressed).

Assuming you are at home, and are likely to stay that way, then you can use the next few weeks to assess the situation - decide whether he can go back to the original school, or if you should try another school, or even HE for a while.

You could say HE until the start of September and then start the new academic year fresh.

You don't even need to actively teach in that time - just give your DS time to destress and find his own interests - he will definitely learn something in that time - it won't be "wasted".

And try and keep friendly with the other mum - it is no more her fault than yours.

Oh God yes the other mum is fantastic - she even offered to take the children out on alternate days, to teach the school a lesson!!

I hope she doesn't resent me, I certainly don't resent her. She's done nothing wrong.

Thanks very muc for your thoughts, Throck. Brill idea about getting ds signed off with stress - I did visit the GP the other day, and asked him to write a letter clarifying the problems he has had related to this - though he said he could only take our word for it, and was a bit reluctant, but he agreed to do it. I haven't seen the letter yet, we're to collect it on Monday.

I am happy to HE for a while and indeed I did one day last week in fear of sending him in. However the EWO I contacted said I had to either dereg him or I'd get into serious trouble - penalty notice, etc - so I can't keep him off and educate him for two weeks then send him back.

Also the school is v oversubbed so I doubt they would hold his place longer than they absolutely had to.

So getting him signed off would work - but what if I can't get the GP to agree to it?

Also if the other child continues to have issues, and it turns out ds cannot go back after half term - what then? I can't make them get him a one to one, they've refused on grounds of funding.

I guess all we can do it look elsewhere and complain. I really want to take this further, they've apparently done this sort of thing before - but how do I go about it? Should I threaten her with complaints to Ofsted?

I like the idea of getting him signed off by the doctor and taking the time off anyway.

I also think it is a good idea to explore new schools. This would solve the issue once and for all but only if you find a school you ds will be happy at.

I think your friend should push for that statement too. Her son will be at school for a long time yet and lessons will become more and more formal. If she can get support in place now, it will be of huge benefit in the long run

The CoG won't automatically take the ht's side, they can't. They have to act impartially and in the children's best interest. Phone the school on Monday and book an appointment with the HT, the CoG, your child's class teacher, and anyone else involved with the pair of children - maybe the other parent and the senco.

If your ds is that stressed and upset about what's going on, his learning is going to be impacted upon. Pull him out for a while, deal with the EWO when they call you to find out why he's not attending. If you've done as I suggest and arranged a meeting then you've put the ball back into the school's hands and they have to try and find a solution to the benefit of both children involved. If they do not, then your child not attending is their responsibility.

I'm a PG and have to say that if this were my situation then I wouldn't hesitate in taking my child out of school if going was proving detrimental to her in any way.

I also wondered about deregging him for now, and reapplying for the place in September...but am not sure when to apply or even if I'm allowed to reapply for a place he has already had, as it were.

They did take months to fill two places in his class when the other children left last summer...they have only just been filled.

Complicated as ds2 starts reception in Sept but I applied for the other school, thinking we had the place.

I don't know if he will get into either school now.

Thankyou both - Migrating, I agree another school would be great but Ds is even more anxious about changing schools. The one we applied to is where he was before so not totally new for him, but even so.

I have advised the other mum to get a statement ASAP.

Jaffacake, thankyou - do you think I should just email everything to the parent governor I spoke to rather than the chair?

I'm a bit clueless about this stuff.

The thing is, they will say - and have already said - that they are doing everything possible, have found an answer, and are working on it (just in time to cover their arses) however I've been told that basically some level of unwelcome contact will happen as they can't separate them totally...no mention of catering for the other boy's needs, there. they are not going to go away just because he is separated part of the time from my child.

They keep saying it's working, but it isn't as exemplified by yesterday's incident - ad the day before, and last week when the HT witnessed the other boy grabbing ds by both wrists immediately in front of us both, and refusing to let go.

They just keep saying 'it's working, it's working' but truthfully I have no faith in it. They haven't even told the sports teacher about separating them FGS.

I'm now being chastised by the class teacher for 'messing ds about' in regard to whether he is staying or going. I am not doing it for fun.

They also keep insisting that whenever they see ds he appears happy. Well he's got used to it now; he has coping strategies, which involve not sleeping till 10pm, night terrors and hitting me and his brother (he is 7!). He tries his best to be happy at school. It doesn't mean he isn't depressed and anxious.

I'm not sure how I can make it clear his non attendance is their responsibility - the EWO didn't seem to take that view, even if I believed he was in danger of psychological damage.

tbh I think the other mum , assuming she is onside as you say, could take a mroe proactive stance. This school are failing her child as much as, if not more, than yours. Do you have a copy fo the bullyign and SEN policy ? She can apply for a statement with or without the backing of the school. She could speak to the SENCO, head and governors about how they are failing in their duty of care to assist him and others (ie your child) as a consequence and may want to speak to the likes of LA and Ipsea first to give her views more authority.

Don't email the PG directly, send it to the CoG. If you end up with an appeal or hearing the PG you've spoken to wouldn't be able to appear on a committee to "hear" it as they would have prior knowledge of the case. They need to be impartial and have limited prior knowledge. That's my understanding of it, as we've just reviewed our complaints procedure.
Ask for a copy of their complaints procedure/policy, that will outline everything you need to do to take it further.

I can understand the school wanting to try their methods and try to make it work, but for that to be successful they need to have all members of staff, and parents on board. They should have had a planning meeting on how to handle this behaviour. You, and your ds should have been involved in that to some degree, as his feelings and coping strategies should have been discussed too.

If all else fails, I would really suggest another school. I understand that your ds would be stressed and upset about the change, but you need to look at short term stress v long term gain. If he remains where he is, and things continue it's really not sending him the right message.

I think you should print this and take it to your GP. You have explained everything very clearly. I am so sorry you are in this situation. Unfortunately you are dealing with a HT who will never change her stance, and will not deal with the issue.

I took my DS out of his school because of serious bullying that the HT refused to acknowledge or deal with. I put him in a different school and he never looked back.

My ds was so disturbed and distressed after months of bullying that he was suicidal. He was 8. The school and the HT didn't care.

Your son needs you to get him out of there.

I know Jaffa - it's such a conflicted situation, he loves the school, has loads of friends but this is damaging him and I cannot ignore that any longer.

Interetsing and useful imfo about the PG not having prior knowledge - I'll need him onside if I take it to a complaint (which looks highly likely).

CoG hasn't replied from email address I found for him (work email, not listed on school website). But if/when he does I'll ask for a copy of complaints policy.

Thankyou.

LIZS, yes, I think it's through no fault of her own but the other mum just wasn't aware of all these things she could be doing. I might direct her to this thread so she can make a note - if she wants to take it on, that is, but as a parent of a child with SN I think she is so busy it's not something I would expect her to do, especially not if it involves complaining and so on.

We have had several planning meetings to discuss Ds and strategies for him but tbh the entire emphasis has been placed on him to react appropriately and tell a teacher, but when he's tried to the other boy has often physically stopped him...he can't seem to take this on, the emotional pressure of reporting tings several times a day - though he tried to for a while.

Their stance seems to be about changing the other boy's behaviour, not accepting it as part of his ASD and providing for it properly using a trained assistant etc.
Using the kids to do it isn't right.

Anyway they know all this - I've emailed several times, too, and quoted their own policies at them but she just said how unhelpful it was to label his behaviour, and that of course these things would not be tolerated in her school (I didn't say bullying btw - there's no intent behind it).

She's really determined to screw us over and get us out. I refuse to make it easy for them - so even if we do go elsewhere, I'll really pursue it as a complaint.

3littlefrogs, thankyou so much. I'm really sorry about your son and so pleased his move was a success.

Did he want to move, or was he afraid - ds is really worried about it. He says he likes his friends and wants to stay. But though he accepts the constant anxiety now as something that's part of school, and that school won't help him with, I know he is and has been already, damaged by it.

Jaffacake is right, it gives him the message that nobody will help.

I'm so utterly fuming with them.

My best hope lies in the other school we wanted having a place come up fairly soon.

I might just HE till then - but I'm going to try and get the GP to sign him off, it's worth a try.

Thanks again.

but it is bullying , whether or not the other child intends it to be that is the otucome for your child and they need to have a policy in place to deal with it appropriately in the case of SEN rather than put the onus on your son. He ideally needs one ot one supervision at breaks, for example.

If your ds cannot express the situation to the staff at the time could he write it down or use stickers (smilies/sad face) on a timetable/diary to flag up when an incident has happened so that a trusted adult can then follow it up with him. It needs to be documented. That way he will feel his problems and feelings are being taken seriously rather than brushed aside as at present.

Thankyou, the chart is a good idea...as is one to one supervision at break times but they have flatly refused to implement this, they just won't, I've asked them to SO many times...no statement, no funding, just a basic NO.

It's mind boggling.

Bullying does require intent by definition and the kid doesn't mean to hurt or upset ds, he just needs a lot of answers and reassurance. But you're right, the outcome, the impact is similar for ds. It's the persistence he can't handle.

I know I couldn't handle it if it were me.

My son tried every strategy the school suggested. They let him down every single time. He tried so hard, but became increasingly anxious and depressed, his self esteem was so low because the HT and his class teacher implied that it was all his fault for not "handling the situation" properly. He was 8 years old.

Then he tried to kill himself.

I took him out.

Within 2 weeks at the new school he was a different child.

I still have flashbacks and am so angry with the HT at that school.

It might be worth linking this thread to the SEN site too, to see if any parent there has any suggestions about taking this forward from the other parent's point of view.

It seems to me, solving the support needed for that child will help your child's situation

Good idea MC. I promised her I would look in SN for a while so if she wanted to post she could in privacy.
But I've had some great advice already.

3Littlefrogs, that's just disgraceful - I am so sorry it got that bad.

This is it - they've told ds he is 'too nice' too caring' and 'needs to be stronger' but it shouldn't be about him - or about the other child adapting his behaviour, either.

It should be about THEM putting in someone to calm those fears and cope with the need for answers and reassurance which frankly some of the teachers seem not bothered enough to deal with.

Ds said to me alst night, when he described the incident during PE, 'Oh God it's all my fault, I shouldn't have said I'd help, I did it all wrong'/

He is blaming himself because they are acting like he can help himself and he can't.

I have decided on the strength of this thread that I will probably pull him out and take the complaint forward while home educating, at least for the time being.

I can't be f*cked with arguing with her any more. She's a bloody tyrant imo.

Thanks for all your help. I just hope the other boy gets some help one of these days. Sadly I wonder if he will, while he is in her school.

I won't be letting this drop.

I think there is a home ed area too, if you need ideas about doing this successfully...

He is definitely stressed - even if he is hiding it well at school. you see the whole picture - so tell the GP that and say he needs a break at least til half term and then reassess.

As for the parent governor - they are just a governor who is a parent - they are not there to represent parents more than any over governor. So I think you would be best gong to the Chair of governors instead.

You can dereg for HE at any time - you just need to write a formal letter to the head - there are standard letters on the net. Ask in the HE section if you need any help.

But I think he really needs a break to recover - so if you do take him out don't try to do any formal ed at all - just let him do what he enjoys - he will learn lots from things like cooking, lego, shopping, walks in the woods, visits to local museums - whatever takes your fancy.

I'd just take him out without the head's permission. The EWO can be contacted and given the full reasons for this and copy in to the chair of governors too. It's not long till half term and the rest would do him the world of good.

Thankyou...I will take him to the GP again on Monday and try to get him signed off till half term.

They don't see the whole picture, yet try so hard to convince me how completely fine he is while there.

They also tried to tell us that he would just have problems somewhere else, even if we moved him

I would hope another school would have adequate SN provision.

Thanks for your support. I won't be sending him in on Monday, whatever.

I don't actually think you need the Dr to sign him off do you?

Can you not just say he is ill, is having nightmares etc and you will bring him back when he is feeling up to school. I would take your Ds to the Dr for advise, but I wouldn't worry about the Dr "giving you permission" iykwim.

That's a good point.

I suspect they know that he is 'well enough' for school in its broadest sense, but he is not well enough to put up with what's been happening and what I have no good reason to think will not continue to happen, every blooming day for the foreseeable future.

She's right that I have lost faith in the school. And rightly so, given the cr*p they have been telling us.

I think having the GP's backup would be great though - one in the eye for them.

Even if he doesn't go back, I want to make it as hard for the HT as possible because she has made it so bloody hard for me - and for ds.

We've had other issues which have been about me (regarding staff at the school) and that wasn't really resolved satisfactorily, but I've put up with it because I thought ds was happy enough.
But when it comes to ds, I can't just put up with inconvenience to him. It's more important than that.

I agree that getting the Gp onside is good, but I would say really don't worry if for some reason the Gp doesn't sign him off. [I've never actually heard of that for a child]

Ds could always suddenly develop a tummy upset or heavy cold

Meant to add, the important thing at the moment is Ds gets some rest at home. You shouldn't have to worry about getting someone in authority to say that is ok.