What the blinking flip do I do now?

[IngridBergmann]

I had my last thread deleted because I know the other mum uses MN too, and though I really needed the advice I thought it disrespectful to leave it in the public domain iyswim.

Anyway...I have come up against a brick wall, and I hope she doesn't mind my posting for some more advice because it seems we have the HT from hell, who is determined to undermine me at every turn and is very good at talking bollocks.

Just to catch up, ds and another boy have been in the same class for 2 and a half years. The other boy has an ASD.

Throughout this period of time they have had a very intense relationship which has caused problems - the other child requires a great deal of reassurance and has taken to following my son around demanding answers, crying or at times physically restraining him. My son does not fight back, he tries very hard to make the other boy feel better.

As a result he has suffered from symptoms such as sleeplessness, aggression (out of the blue, out of character and always directly after school - repeating phrases the other boy is known to use, which make little sense in the context) and an aversion to answering questions and being 'controlled' as he puts it. I didn't know what was causing all this until last summer when it became apparent there was a big problem with the other boy.

School have known about it since yr1, I was not told, and only started realisng there were some issues between them in yr2, but school still did very little. Yr3 has been the worst and the symptoms got severe.

I have kept in good contact with the other child's mum and she is brilliant, she knows him well obviously, and we agree the boys need separating. But school isn't doing it properly.

They keep assuring us that they never are together in class, never play together, and finally last month they got in a specialist after I talked about moving schools, but he's only recommended a circle of friends system and it appears not to be doing much.

He has no statement, and according to his mum the school advised her against it in reception.
I can't believe their attitude.

They keep telling me it is all fine now, then it became clear it wasn't, various incidents of the boy continuing to upset ds, being told they weren't together at playtime when they both told us they were etc.

So school revised their platitudes and now are saying it will get worse before it gets better - the other child is apparently reacting as though it were a 'divorce', and is angry and confused, which impacts on everyone. It's not his fault; he can't help it.

So I asked if we could take ds out of school for a few weeks till half term, to give the new system the best chance of working, ie 'cold turkey' rather than them always having to avoid each other, which they can't.

Spoke to parent governor yesterday, and he thought it was an excellent idea. As do several other people in my family including teachers/people who worked with ASD children and know their stuff.

However the HT refuses to authorise it. She says it will 'not resolve, but postpone' the problem. I wrote back saying I did not see how, given that the boys are being kept apart - how can it impact on the other child's 'conversion' into his new friendship circle, if my son isn't around - I'd have thought it would help him to as the temptation wouldn't be there.

She said that they are monitored throughout the day and are not together in lessons.
Yesterday my son told me that during PE. the other boy was very upset, crying loudly, and the teacher walked over (not their class teacher, but the same one they have at least once a week) and asked what was wrong, but my son said 'I will help sort out []' and the teacher said 'Ok' and walked off!

Ds said he felt like crying himself, he can't bear it when the other boy cries, but he didn't cry as he wanted the other boy to stop. He managed eventually to placate him.

In my view this contradicts directly what the HT said, firsly that they are not working together in class, and secondly that they are being monitored and the teachers will take charge of any incident where the other boy is distressed.

I'm fuming that this happened, yet again, and I feel I'm in an impossible position because if I send ds to school he's effectively being used by them as a carer for the other child, and if I don't, I will either have to formally remove him from the school roll,(role?) or to risk a penalty notice for absence.
the HT had the absolute cheek to suggest that if we didn't have faith in the school and trust them to do as they said, we were welcome to go to a different school.

I've emailed back in a very stern manner, but what else can I do - I'm exhausted, I tried emailing the chair of governors but he hasn't replied, and I suspect he will take her side anyway.

I don't want to move ds, I just want to take a couple of weeks to make a proper decision and not subject him to the mess this is while they sort out their own 'teething troubles' with the new system.

Any advice really gratefully received.

Thanks...sadly we did the bad cold last week, and it was true!! (if convenient)

but will think of some way to manage it; I don't mind being completely honest about it, because I know they've let down both children, and we haven't done anything wrong.

They just want us to think we have.

This boy seriously needs a statement.

The school are probably resisting as full statements (for fairly complex special needs) involving extra funding are given very rarely and lesser statements are often now awarded where the school have to find the funds for extra hours within their own budgets. School budgets have been slashed recently and carry forwards on funding are no longer allowed so many schools are in financial dire straights.

The mum will have to apply for the statement herself (the school will probably resist this but tough.)

I can see this as being the only solution for this poor boy who is obviously not being supported the way he needs to be, and for your poor DS whose education (and sanity) is being severely disrupted.

Ah Brigit that really helps explain it.

His mum told me that she had been told more recently that statements might not increase funding any more, so she wasn't sure if it would make a difference applying.

I can see exactly why school doesn't want him to have one now.

Thankyou - will pass on the info.

That's really useful - I will ask them why they can't mark him as being educated offsite.

How on earth would it affect them? Her arguments were that it would 'postpone' the problem - but how? If the other boy is - as they state - barely seeing or spending time with ds at all, how can ds's temporary absence delay his improvement in terms of his wider friendship base and his getting over ds being close to him?

Surely it's better than having the constant temptation to approach ds, and even being approached BY ds at times.

and that it would mean ds would 'Lose' the friendships he has started to work on recently......we have good links with these children and their parents and have agreed to keep them in contact.
Two weeks off is no more than any child with say the flu or another fairly harsh illness would need - and the same as the allowance school has for in-term holidays

Surely this is more important than two weeks skiing in the South of France?

It's rubbish and I don't know why she really objects. I suspect it is because she doesn't want me to 'win'. Which in itself seems a good reason to move schools.

Thanks, I will mention the 'Educated Offsite' thing to them and see whether they can counter it. That's very helpful.

maybe that is the point though - your DS is no longer coping and so postponing the situation until he is more up to it is what is needed now.

If a couple of weeks break give him a bit more self confidence and also give the other child a chance to not be so dependent on him then it might solve the problem.

I do think you need to do it officially though because it sounds like the EWO is already on the edges - and if you do finally decide to HE having EWO breathing down your neck will not help.

If you do go down that route you want to be able to do it as a positive decision as the best thing to do in the circumstances and not have to fight the system at the same time.

I see what you mean Throckenholt. Thanks.

Yes, postponing it would be great, actually, even if it is postponing - and still not sure it is, because they're supposed to be being 'coached' in their strategies independantly anyway - and it has reached a point where ds needs to be shown that life is NOT always about worrying, about having a child crying at you or asking you the same question fifty times until you want to punch them.
I really think he has internalised this situation and that's what I want to reverse.

Each day I've sent him in this last week, something bad has happened. (apart from the trip on Monday, where the boys were separated all the time, apparently)

So no more - that's the end of it. If ds was being hit, they couldn't say 'well he'll just have to put up with it a bit'.

The more I think about it the less I want this HT anywhere near in charge of my childs education. I don't like her apparent agenda, I don't like her attitude to SN and I don't like her rudeness.

But in the immediate future I will be keeping him at home regardless of the outcome.

I've HE'd him before, but it's much more fun now he's a bit older. We did it last week and he was following me around all day asking to 'do some more learning, Mum!' and nicking my dictionaries and phrase books.

He is v sefl motivated. And one good thing is it's finally got my family onside, because they didn't want me to HE before and got on my case about it - so in a way it might have worked out Ok.

In the long term, it would be good to get him into a school where he will be able to socialise and learn increasing independance.

If that is at this school or another will be up to you (and him!)
The break idea is good though, sounds like you could do with it too. A bit of distance will help your plan of action!

also, getting him signed off for stress will add evidence to your case. It sounds to me like the school are not fully taking on board the impact this is having at home.

You're right MC (and I get your name now, thanks to someone linking on youtube!!)

It's me btw under another name.

I'm nervous about tomorrow. I've no idea how she will respond to my emails from Friday night. I don't like confrontation and I am sure she wants to save face...but ds comes first, and two weeks off is better for his interests than changing schools straight away.

I need to make a plan - I'll take him to the GP again, try and get him signed off, actually the letter we got might be enough to back us up regarding the psychological effects, once I've collected it I'll see what it says.

Then I'll email the EWO and tell them we have a letter to say ds is being affected by the stress, and thus I'm keeping him away.

If school get in touch I will ask them why they can't do the Educated Offsite option. I thought his class teacher would be pro the idea but she seems to think it'll confuse him - like what happened on Friday wouldn't!

I hate the idea of falling out with her, I know her from years back and really respect her with regard to the children but we don't agree on everything, sadly. (she also told the other boy 'If you are not nicer to [ds], he might have to leave the school!'

I don't think that was helpful tbh.
I'm sure they have misgivings about how I am handling this, too, but it's a situation they are responsible for, and I'm just reacting in the best way I can given the mess they have made of it. I think 'successful' schools seem to be so resistant to the idea that anything serious can go wrong in their lovely school, that when it threatens to, they try to let confidence and complacency carry them through - and often that is just not enough.

Thanks again for all your support and advice.

The HT won't be able to argue with the GPs advice. There are other professionals who may help too. If it's a single form entry, then the school will be limited as to how much they can separate them.

yes it is single intake, sadly. I realise separation isn't a proper option but without some one to one for the other boy, you're right, it's all they can offer. It's a bit pathetic. They've left it far to late and been far too reactive and not proactive.

They know this though.

Are you thinking Ed Psych? re other professionals.

If this goes so far that your DS has proactive advice from yr GP then it could justify an EP's input.

I think the danger here is the notion of your DS having any social responsibility for this little boy. The symptoms here might indicate that - it's horrible to have to endure unwanted attention, and so publicly. Your son feeling ANY sense of responsibility for this boy is hugely inappropriate, and the school have obviously been rubbish. I think you've summed it up very well - reactive, not proactive. They'll look like complete tits if this gets to the EP's ears.

Also, it's not up to the HT to control how you choose to education your child. Education is the parent's responsibility, and most of us choose to fulfil this by sending our children to school where their education is govt funded (in most cases). If the school are not meeting our child's educational needs (and they are not managing the social situation at all well, as evidenced by your DSs responses, which is all part of his education) then you can choose to continue his education yourself until such times as the situation is addressed appropriately.

Educating your DS offsite for a limited amount of time while the school make appropriate watertight arrangements is not the same as applying for authorised absence. It's totally different.

The behaviour management strategies they have in place for the other boy are clearly not working. They should be revisiting his IEP and resourcing appropriate and adequate supervision so that he succeeds socially as well as your DS. (Spent some time as a behaviour management advisor in mainstream schools). I also think that the other boy's mother should be doing more to pressurise the school to make sure this happens. Both boys are failing socially - neither of them through their own fault. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Thankyou ever so much. I know it's wrong but feel so ganged up on by the school that it's very hard to keep hold of that - what with ds saying he doesn't want to leave, and the other boy's parents not being totally aware of the inout they could be having...not that they don't want to help but SN children don't come with an instruction manual as to handling the state education system.

I'm really thankful for your backup and that you can see how inappropriate their 'management' of the situation is. Obviously they know they're stuffing it up but they don't see it as a priority.

I know I can take him out if I choose, but it would be so nice to be able to take a break for say six months, wait till the other boy settles down (which he might, you never know) or maybe even gets a statement organised, and be able to return to the same school and the same friends in the Autumn.

That would be great. But I'm not sure this is something they will be prepared to consider, because basically it is down to their mismanagement that he'd be taking time out, and they are afraid of it looking bad for them...

How would I go about getting him referred to the Edu Psych? Could you give me an idea - do school have to refer him, or can we self refer? I cannot deny that I would LOVE them to be shown up. But more importantly it might make life easier somehow for ds and the other kid. If the school gets a boot up the arse it will be progress I feel.

You can certainly request seeing the Ed psych. I think you have to go through the senco of the school, but you can check this in the SEN section here.

Good luck for tomorrow, let us know what happens! (glad you worked the name out!!)

Thankyou, have just emailed the LA EPS for advice...maybe they will get back to me as well. All good to have a record of

The Senco is really nice, she's strangely never been to our meetings though she did very sweetly look after my kids when I was in one.

I might be able to wangle a referral if she's the one who does it.

I'll let you know, tomorrow - and thanks again

How can the senco not have been involved??!!

Not a clue - perhaps they reserve her for the parents with the child with SN? I've spoken to her a couple of times casually but she's not been at any meetings. Just the class teacher and the family liaison person, and then finally the HT

I am concerned the HT thinks my son has difficulty making friends, but he doesn't - the other boy does. Shows how much she knows.

Okay, I have now emailed the EWO to explain today's situation, the EPS to ask about referral, the SENCO to ask about EP referral, and the school office to say he is suffering from stress and anxiety and has a stomach ache.

Not sure what to do next! I'm very nervous about it all. I'm afraid the HT will come back with some kind of allegation that he is stressed and anxious because of me, or something.

I'm afraid of making it all worse. Tempted just to write the dereg letter and get it all over with.

YES!! Just got an email from the chair of Governors giving me his email address for school matters.

and immediately after that, an email from the HT authorising two weeks' absence!!!

She still doesn't agree it's the best thing but faced with a choice between authorised and unauthorised absence I guess she is going for the former.

Hooray.
I have thanked her and offered to keep him up to date with the work if the class teacher forwards an outline of it by email.

Great outcome so far!
Glad you've got your ds home with you and he can start to de-stress. Poor thing.
Hope you have a lovely day together!

Thankyou!

So far we've done a violin lesson and a bit of maths...but not doing toooo much!

I just hope this gives the other boy a chance to establish his new friendships.

It also means we don't have to decide straight away whether to remove ds or not. And it means I won't be in trouble.

Ingrid - here are my thoughts - I may not be right but it's just how I feel from what you have posted.

Basically, I'm not sure whether your relationship with the HT has deteriorated to a point where it is not recoverable (not your fault by the way as far as I can see) and whether even with the best will in the world ( which it doesn't seem as if the school has) they can actually manage the situation better. They may just not have the funding (see other threads on primary ed about schools no being able to afford reading books). Have you asked yourself whether, even if the situation does settle down, you think you could collaborate positively with this HT about ds's education in the future?

I agree that you and ds having a 2 week break to relax and take stock is great. I'd still take him to see your GP, explain the latest problems, and ask fora referral to CAMHS.

a) This will show the HT and governors that you are serious about the impact of the situation on DS

b) Your GP has another record of you coming again to see him about the situation which will be useful should you decide to go down the formal complaint route.

c) If ds can get some support from CAMHS, it may help him to process what has gone on and recover his self confidence and deal with the other child more assertively if he does return to that school, or deal with moving school more easily if this is what happens.

I'm increasingly feeling that you may be better cutting your losses, taking ds out of school and HEing with a view to getting a place at the other school you like once one becomes available. I think the on/off-ness of it all at the moment is likely to be confusing and stressing ds- But that is just my opinion.

I'm not wanting any of this to come across critically by the way ( except wrt the school!)I do feel loads of sympathy for the situation you are in and hope you get things sorted really soon. I guess I'm just wanting to be honest about how I'm seeing things.

thankyou, Sarah, and I really do appreciate any input whatever sort it might be!

I don't see your post as critical, that's fine - and I know it does him no favours to have this going on, but I think in the circumstances it's been fairly unavoidable so far. I was trying to negotiate a really complicated path between the law and what I felt were ds's best interests, keeping school reasonably happy, keeping the EWOlf from the door, and making sure we gave school a chance to do their thing (and in the process, gave them enough rope).

You're right that there is not much else they can do. Had they spoken to the sports teacher (well actually I've no idea if they did or not) Friday's incident might have been avoided and I'd have less cause for concern, but I do feel that it's a bit late to actually improve the situation because there is no funding, and this is due to past mistakes by the school in not pushing for a statement, also they left it far too long before intervening.

So cutting our losses makes sense - they can't make things better now. However I did think it important to make our case very strongly so that it might have an impact on future situations with SN children and how the school handles it...I didn't want to take ds out as though I were flouncing for my own reasons, as though I had a grudge or an agenda not about his welfare.

I hope that makes sense - they see me as a renegade already so it was vital that didn't go down as the reason, and I think her suggesting a different school was trying me out to see if I jumped ship willingly or actually was serious about wanting ds to stay.

I think I might not send him back after half term - or maybe we will try it for a week or so.

The HT did offer her support whether we decided to leave or not, so hopefully she will give a good reference or impression of us if we do transfer to a different school.

I don't think the relationship is beyond redemption but she will need to start the statementing process with the other boy and really put some effort into this before I'll feel happy.

Another thing I'm having to keep in mind is ds2. Should ds1 end up coming back to this school, I'll want to be able to appeal for ds2 to go there too - at the moment he is awaiting allocation for reception. And if his place is decided while ds1 is NOT a pupil at this school, we won't be able to appeal. And it is a good school in many ways.

So it's a bit tricky - but I think we will get there in the end. Thanks again for your suggestions about CAHMS - our local one is actually not too great, they will spend five minutes with your child, tell you he has ADHD and chuck you out. (My mum worked there for a long time so she knows!)
However the Ed Psych is very different and we are pursuing that route so we can back up our side of the story - and also, because it might help ds with strategies, assertiveness etc.

It is essentially about him but I want it to be clear why it's happened. I think that's important and also not letting school continue with the current attitude - even if we're not there any more, other kids are.

I hope so anyway.