DS (4) being sent home for pooing or being called in the change him - normal?

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

DS just keeps pooing himself. Tried GP, rewards the lot but he keeps doing it. He started reception in Sept & I told them about this, but often he comes home caked own his legs etc) and red raw (then tells me he did it after lunch ie hours ago) , or they half heartidly change him and he has clean trousers but huge dried on amounts down his legs, or they call and ask me to take him home & then he isn't allowed back for 48 hours (no bug, he always has loose poo). DH has just been called to change him which is fine because he is off work, but he's back soon. He is starting to miss somuch school - what can I do? :(

OP - hope you can find out the underlying problem and get this sorted soon . It does sound as if a difficult situation has been made worse by the school's attitude to dealing with it.

I'm not familiar with how most primaries are set up but it does seem odd that an establishment which cares for children as young as (only just) 4 don't have a facility where a child with heavily soiled clothes can be adequately cleaned up.

I agree that it's not ideal for the class teacher to have to try and do it in the class toilet area, as facilities are usually pretty basic. But don't most schools have a 'nurse room' or similar? (I don't know if they do, if not they should).

As long as the child has a change of clothes then the dirty ones can be bagged up and sent home at home time with the child. As they routinely are in pre-school and day nurseries - who also look after 4 year olds - with no H&S horrors.

If schools can't adequately care for Reception age children they shouldn't accept them at such a young age.

I don't know of any primary with a nurse room. We use the disabled toilet, has space for an adult and a child, and the privacy to strip.
Has to be a TA, a teacher couldn't leave the class unsupervised for that length of time.
Our reception use the same toilets as the rest of KS1. Not ensuite.

Mrz yes maybe a lot of reception classes especially that has younger pupils starting f/t at just turned 4 often do as they follow the pre foundation

I agree sending wipes/change of clothes in is a good idea too, ds has these in school and bag for dirty clothes

This could have been my DS (now 8) - his first year of school he was on 85% attendance as every time he had an accident he had to stay at home for 2 days. Eventually his teacher realised it wasn't "a bug" and I was phoned in to help him clean up or take him home, shower him and send him back. He had changes of clothes at school, wipes and bags to put it all in.

He eventually got diag. as coeliac and geniuly has no control over his bowel if hes had gluten.

I would be banging on the doctors doors, they now think my DS was coeliac from weaning and they had just "missed it" and put it down to behaviour ....

have you spent some time explaining to him that he won't fall down the toilet?

I know this sounds facetious, but I had a VERY enlightening conversation with ds2 (also four, and also at school, and also soiling himself 2/3 times a week) that culminated in the realisation thathe had seen a children's program with a man being flushed down the toilet. Hence his now firm belief that "If Big Mans can be flushed away, then little boys can be flushed away, and I don't want to sit on the toilet!"

One conversation about the unreality of tv shows and the real size of the u bend has solved nearly ALL his accidents. Immediately.

I was gobsmacked. I was convinced he was either constipated, psychologically fragile or damaged in the bowel area, but it seemed that he just needed his reality adjusting...

Hi, a friend of mine had this problem with her daughter it was diagnosed as toddler bowel syndrome (or immature bowel syndrome). I think she was put on immodium and finally grew out of it.

The school should have a policy and facilities to deal with this and it'll be covered by the disability discrimination act - speak to your GP and get a referal to get a proper diagnosis and then show this to the school and they will need to put something in place to handle the situation.

Hope this help - your poor little boy

Goblinchild - yes it does sound as if there's a real issue re facilities and staff numbers wrt caring for such a lot of young children at once.

Again, what springs to mind is that if schools don't have the facilities to look after them, they shouldn't be accepting children at such a young age.

Pre-schools and day nurseries look after 4-year-olds with a much higher staff ratio. It doesn't seem to be taken into account that many Reception children are only just 4, the SAME age as many pre-school children.

I think that actually the school is NOT obliged to clean him up.
I know of a similar case of a 4 year old, whose mother was called everytime it happens.

In fact, as he is still only 4, your son is not obliged to be in school yet, and they are not obliged to definitely have him until he is 5.

Could you try a reduced timetable (say, mornings only) until the underlying medical issue is resolved?

The point is goingroundthebend4 the EYFS says only one teacher (no TA) is required in a reception class with 30 pupils and with budget cuts ...

op - my son had problems with not pooing in the loo at nursery. after six months of cleaning him every day - i asked my hv to refer me to a toilet training clinic. It is not overnight results and works on the basis of reward and routine. Same time every day sit your child on the loo after a meal normally start with breakfast and before bed. Leave for 5 or so mins. Whether or not anything happens a sticker is given, so many stickers equals a reward - start small for first few charts. It is important that the school are supportive of this as encourgement helps to bring results. After about 2 months results happened, and using other sticker charts with the reward visable a small toy like a car or small lego is good, my son went to the loo.

Ask your gp to refer u. Contact school and speak to head.

I am a TA. My job doesn't cover cleaning up a soiled child. Some of our TAs, more so the 1:1 TAs, do have this job in their role however.

We have had more than 1 child need nappy changing and it has to be done by the appointed TA. One current child is changed at school but asfaik it is always his mum who comes in and does it. I don't knwo why that is the case.

If in a one off emergency then yes, of course TAs and teachers will do it.

But if it is a regular occurence than something more needs to be in place. Some form of action plan or care plan needs writing with parents, teacher and senco involved, and advice from the gp. Am
nd further medical advice is needed too.

Our foundation also don't have seperate toilets. They use the same toilets as the rest of the infants.

The nappy changing takes place on the floor of a diabled toilet. This is already not ideal and the school are looking into what they can do to sort this. They are also looking into the possibilities of having a shower installed for such situations as well. But it is very costly. Amd there isn't really any room for it without a lot of chagnes, which is very hard ina very old building. And it all takes a long time.

Nonnomum, I'm not sure, but it might be considered discriminatory to exclude a child from their Reception education because of toileting issues.

Unless of course it is the family's preference, in which case I (personally) think it's fair enough to take off whatever time is needed until the issue is resolved.

As someone who has been through this with my DS can i recommend ERIC ?(Education and Resources for Improving Childhood Continence).They quite literally saved my sanity.They are a specialist charity and were recommended by the school nurse.
Have you got a school nurse?-they can be very helpful as they can liase with the school in implimenting practical plans etc.
They do get through this- eventually.

At my school teachers and TAs aren't allowed to clean a child up unless the child has a care plan, which usually comes with a diagnosed medical condition.

However, that doesn't excuse the school stuffing blue paper towels in his pants and the other things that you describe - they should provide him with wipes to clean himself and if it is too severe, call you to change him at school or take him home.

What you have to realise is that one member of staff couldn't be left on their own cleaning a child up for child protection reasons, so that's 2 members of staff out of class for however long it takes. Mainstream schools just don't have the staff to be able to do this. And to say that they shouldn't accept children at such a young age if they don't have the facilities to deal with this kind of thing is unreasonable HouseofBamboo, since this is not an everyday situation for school age children.

OP - it must be a horrible situation for you and your ds, and it sounds as though the school are not dealing with it very well. The sooner you can get to the underlying medical or emotional reason the better.

Mamaduckbone - why don't those child protection regulations apply to day nursery and pre-school workers?

Obviously a school isn't the same as a day nursery, but my point is that in Reception, a lot of the children are the SAME AGE as children in pre-school and nursery. To expect them to suddenly grow up overnight is a bit unrealistic and should be planned for.

Of course, where there is a medical or psychological problem then it should be properly (and sensitively) dealt with.

Yep - good idea to get the school nurse involved. There will be one allocated to the school, even if she is not onsite very often.

It is totally untrue (but commonly believed) that there needs to be two members of staff present as long as staff have a CRB check they are covered. Will we always need two staff to be present?
No on both counts - in most cases. The normal process of changing a nappy should not raise child protection concerns, and there are no regulations that indicate that a second member of staff must be available to supervise the nappy changing process to ensure that abuse does not take place. Few settings/schools will have the staffing resources to provide two members of staff for nappy changing and CRB checks are carried out to ensure the safety of children with staff employed in EYFS settings. As above it is key that parents/carers know who is designated to change or supervise their child. If there is known risk of false allegation by a child then a single practitioner should not undertake nappy changing. A student on placement should not change a nappy unsupervised.

OP, as you are at home with 2yo and 6mo, have you considered taking DS out of school and letting him be at home with you until he has matured to the point of not having accidents?

SD, it's not necessarily a maturity issue. encopresis is very common.

Please get advice on whether it is constipation/medical in cause - my DD had the same in reception (and I was called in to clean her up several times a week). But all the rewards etc in the world would not have fixed what turned out to be constipation related.

A few years later I now realise that starting school she went from having quite a bit of fruit and drink during the day to having basically half a cup of water at lunchtime (school dinners) so not enough to drink during the hours of 9 till 3. Plus less fruit/fibre. That combined with heated rooms etc led, over several months to her developing faecal impaction. Which needed medical treatment with Movicol (lactulose didnt help her although it can help some children, it gave my DD tummy pain and severe wind).

I feel so bad that we were trying to get her to improve on her own and made her feel bad about it when she needed help. Our GP was useless - we finally saw a specialist nurse.

Even now DD still has extra drinks for breaktime at school and packed lunches with smoothies and fruit etc.

Oh yes that's right, extra drinks - this was the first thing my son's teacher suggested and the TA and teacher both push him to drink lots and lots during the day, this combined with the Lactulose solved it for us. She had been through it with another child just the year before so she was well up on all the relevant info! Some GPs aren't though so I would push to see the continence service or a paed if you can, and also read up as much about it as you can yourself. Hope you come back and let us know how it's going OP.

Of course you should take your child back to your GP, but also make an appointment with the school nurse, and ensure that the school SENCO also attends this meeting.

Your school office will be able to give you details of the school nurse assigned to your school. It is the school nurses job to ensure that your son's medical needs are met within a class setting. S/He will write a care plan for your child, and you will have a say in what goes into the care plan.

I would personally call the school office today, and get details of the school nurse so you can ensure that a care plan is put in place quickly.

My dd's friend had problems with soiling in reception and Y1. She was also diagnosed with severe constipation, and spent some time in hospital with a bowel obstruction. She is now 8 and still on medication, which keeps her well. It is such a common problem, I am sure your ds will get the treatment he needs.

If your GP is part of a group practice, then maybe take your ds back to see a different doctor if you felt that the GP was not understanding. Ensure that you explain to your doctor that your son is missing school and this problem is not going away.

Thankyou for all the replies, am reading through them slowly now and sorting a plan of action, thanks. I'll answer any Qs in abit :)

sorry, no advice to add, but sending my sypathy to you, dh and ds. I hope that you get it sorted.