Thinking of sending DC to average state primary even though I can afford excellent private pre-prep - would you do the same?

[sanam2010]

I was looking at the many excellent private pre-preps here in London before DC was born and had already chosen my favourites, but since DC was born I have had a complete U-turn and want to send her to the local community primary instead - took some time to convince DH but he is now on board. We could afford private for two or three children so looking at other people, colleagues etc it seems my choice is very unusual and I am wondering what people think about my reasoning:

PRO-STATE

• The local community primary is just 0.2 miles from our house, right next to a beautiful local park, whereas all the private schools I like are 10-20min drive. There is one good local private school in walking distance (Thomas'), but it wouldn't be my top pick
• Although the Ofsted report is only "good", the state school has a new headteacher and they do seem to be a vibrant school working hard towards outstanding status. Also, the report notes many children in the school come from immigrant families and have below average skills when they start, but that the school does an excellent job to get them to average level or better, so the teaching is good.
• the report also notes that the school is outstanding in terms of children's welfare and care and that the children are very happy, have a huge playground and that the parents are very satisfied with the school
• In terms of afterschool care, there is an outstanding Catholic school next to it where all children from the borough going to state school can go until 6pm every day, it is organised by the teachers of the outstanding school. The private schools on the other hand usually don't have after-school activities all week and only up to 4.30 or 5pm, so as I work full-time I would have to pay an afterschool nanny on top to pick up the children from school and bring them home and take care of them until we come home from work
• In terms of the curriculum, the state primary teaches Spanish as a modern language, which I find much more useful than French which all the private schools teach. I know private schools can teach other languages but French is compulsory, and as my DC is already growing up trilingually I am not eager for her to have to learn French on top of that at such an early age
• Although we can easily afford private, I still think we could do something more useful with the money. With afterschool clubs, uniform, after-school nanny etc I estimate the cost of private here in London will be 16-20k per child per year, and that will add up over the years
• I guess I can try state and if I am not happy always switch DC to private at 7+, at least I will have saved 60k or so
• I also like the idea of DC getting to know normal children from the neighbourhood rather than being driven to private school further away and only interacting with children of investment bankers and diplomats

PRO-PRIVATE

• The academics obviously, especially as Ofsted report suggests the local state primary does not cater well towards very able children (though it is very good at bringing below average children up to speed)
• In terms of the environment I like the idea of DC studying together with children who have a very good work ethic and desire to learn. I assume that at least at very good private schools the work ethic would be much better

I don't see many more reasons to choose private, so looking at that list you will understand why I am hesitating to even register DC with any of the private schools that I had looked at (I was looking at Cameron House School in Chelsea, Eaton Square School in Belgravia and Knightsbridge School - they all look fantastic to be honest but I am still not sure it is really worth it).

What would you do?

I think you have made your mind up already. Good luck to your DC.

IMO there is no harm trying state.

The only other thing to consider is where you want to go for secondary as preps, well, prep for the exams and state schools don't. You can make up the shortfall with a tutor, but that's cutting into your child's free time, or move at 7+, which relies on the state school being good enough to get in.

Some parents therefore choose private despite excellent state options because state leads to not-very-good state secondary whereas private means they will almost certainly get into a private school (which in general are better than state ones).

Also your point about the teaching being good is valid to a point. If your DC proves exceptionally able and the school are geared towards the least able and providing value added there then you may find the teaching disappointing.

You could always pay for a tutor to prep for private at 11. From talking to friends who have done the private route they have done state and primary and then again at 6th form.

You seem to be hanging a lot onto the ofsted report. How much of the schools have you actually seen. How do the teachers talk to and interact with the children, how much support is required by parents in terms of learning at home, are parents generally supportive of the school or not. And how high is the churn rate of pupils in these school? Whilst it is a few years away what are your thoughts regarding secondary schools? It is much harder to move children away from their friends of 6 or 7 years when they are 10 or 11.

I'm sure that your local school will be absolutely great. But I just don't rely too much solely on ofsted. That said, at least you've read the report - most only seem to take note of the rating.

I agree with lovecheese, you sound smitten with the state primary so go for it, hope it works as well for you as it has for me

I did exactly what you did, btw, in similar circumstances - looked at 2 state, 2 private in our area. Smaller state community school won me hands down - plus I really want the dds to have the experience of a down to earth, mixed community with excellent pastoral care. There are definitely pros and cons, and I occasionally let myself be wibbled by the thought of academically more advanced peers etc, but overall I couldn't be happier - nor could they. And I've ended up being a Parent Governor, because I like the people there so much and care so much about the school.

To add: I do think different schools, and possibly systems, work best for different children - and families. Take that into account too, its hard at that age because you can't tell how they will be later - but if you love it, they are likely to. And you can always change later, worst case.

The state school sounds good, not average.

All three of mine have been/are in state schools with Ofsteds ranging from Satisfactory to Outstanding. Ofsted is just a snapshot of some of the things that the inspectors look at over one specific period - it's really only part of the picture. My dc's primary school moved from Satisfactory to Outstanding while my dc were attending, even though it didn't suddenly become a different school overnight!

The feel and atmosphere of the school is much more important, and all the things that you list as pros for the state school are the things we value in the schools my dc are at (two now at secondary, one still at primary).

Another advantage that you don't list is that the benefits of a more mixed environment extend to the fact that you don't get anything like the same level of parental pushiness, anxiety and competitiveness, which is a huge relief. This is I think distinct from 'work ethic' - at private schools there will be much more focus on achieving particular (not necessarily interesting) academic benchmarks, and many parents will be eagerly adding to this pressure at home, sometimes with tutors. At a state school there will be a much wider ability range, and not all parents will be able or willing to micromanage their dc's education to the same level. But that's not nec a disadvantage, and may even be a plus as the dc have a bit more space to develop their own interests.

The mix of backgrounds, abilities and interests in the classes also means that there is much less peer pressure in terms of who is best at schoolwork, and who has the latest gadgets or went on the smartest holiday. My dc are all fairly robust and relaxed about the fact that some people have more than them or find work easier, whereas other people have less, whereas the experience of my brother's dc (who are at a school similar to the ones you mention) is that there's much more competitive-based nastiness of the "oh, can't you do that, you're a baby", or "oh you only went to Yorkshire for your holidays, we went to St Barts" variety.

Overall, I would say my dc are probably a bit more robust and laid-back than their privately-educated cousins. Academically they are if anything slightly ahead, though they get far less homework and don't have such neat handwriting. If your social circle consists of lots of private-school parents, then get your flak jacket ready and tune your ears to bypass mode, because your decision will inevitably be unsettling for people who are paying £12K a year for something not ultimately that different from what you're getting for free. Some people are so focussed on private being the only option that they sound positively surprised to hear that children have actual lessons in state schools, or don't get beaten up on a regular basis.

You do need to keep your nerve a bit, and remember that the school has a wider set of priorities than just fine-tuning the abilities of a very narrowly-selected range of kids. And in fairness there are some schools that do not do justice to all dc. But if there is a real, longer-term problem you will spot it, and there's plenty of time to move schools later on (lots of movement at 7+ and beyond). As long as your dc are happy and learning, and you keep a bit of an eye on what's going on, there's no reason why they shouldn't get an education that is as good, probably more quirky and fun and definitely more diverse than anything you could get by shelling out lots of money.

Welcome on board.

I think you know what you want too but it goes against the received wisdom one meets in wider society that if you can afford private you should which means you're probably having a wobble.

Give the state school a go - it might be great and if it's not you can probably switch at 7 as especially in London preps places come up as people move house given the population seems a little more transient than elsewhere.

I did this and never regretted it.It somehow made us 'part' of the local area and we still are.He is 16/17 now and at college and so the school gate thing stopped years ago but even last night at parents evening at college we knew everyone and were invited for dinner at a few freinds and vice versa.i thoroughly recommend it

I think local schooling is great. Ds1 and dd go to private schools but their being within very shirt walking distance was a big factor. Actually part of the reason we chose the private school for dd was that it was much closer than the state school we liked ( along with single sex and 20 times more sport/pe)

Go with the school that best meets your needs.which sounds like the state school. Bit obvious tbh

I think you absolutely have to go with your gut feeling.

We've chosen private over an outstanding rated local school. Outstanding by Ofsted standards but actually hugely pushy and SATs obsessed. I say this to remind you to take Ofsted reports with a pinch of salt. Visit the schools, see how they interact with your DD and go with your instincts.

The school we chose was vibrant, happy and relaxed. If I'd sensed this ethos at my local state primary, we'd have gone with that. Not everyone choses private because they're elitist. You've got to make your own decision based on what's in front of you and put any feeling of what you 'should' be doing to one side. Good luck!

I agree with all those who say you shouldn't just rely on OFSTED - look around the school (preferably shown around by one or two of the older children, as this is more revealing than being shown around by an adult!), speak to the headteacher, get a real feel for the place. And then, if you still like it, go for it. I am very pro-state education for all the reasons you have expressed and I love being able to walk my children to school and really feeling part of the local community. I really don't agree with the sentiment that you should always pay for private education if you can afford it. You should do what feels right for you and your children. State education worked for me, and certainly at the moment it is working for my children. You can always opt out later on if it doesn't seem to be working.

Yes - and I have done. DS1 is at our local state primary school which is "satisfactory" according to Ofsted. He loved his first term there and has lots of friends, from all cultures, as a result of attending the school. We're keeping an eye on how he gets along both socially and academically and if its not the right environment for him at any time we will move him to the best suited private school - for the time being, we are all very happy with our choice.

I was sent to a private school (secondary) about 10 miles away whereas my brother went to the local one.

In the long-run there is little difference in our academic qualifications (we are both teachers) and our "educational outcome".

I never felt a part of our village and have subsequently moved abroad to live, my brother still goes back for weekends there and has a wide circle of local friends.

As long as sport and music aren't that important to you I think you have a valid choice. Nothing replaces school orchestras and choirs or playing lots of fixtures. Although lots of the London prep school do have limited sports facilities. Driving them round to lots of extra stuff is not only a pain (especially if you have more than 2 kids) its not a replacement.

Look at the actual language teaching at the state school - it could just be token half hour with a non-native a week when prep schools will often have native specialist teachers.

I played 2 instruments to grade 8 distinction and one to grade 7 distinction, and played in orchestras and brass bands - all while attending state schools. I also remember singing in the choir at primary school (and playing netball matches against other primary schools). Peripatetic music teachers do actually venture into state primary and secondary schools from time to time, you know, and good sports instructors sometimes give up their time to get involved in state schools' after-school clubs (provided there is an area for sport left near the school...)... although admittedly, you are very unlikely to find an orchestra in a state primary school. But then I doubt there are enough truly talented musicians in most private prep schools to make up a really fantastic orchestra, so if my children were really good at music, I wouldn't want to rely on the school for everything, anyway...

Would agree you should check on what the actual language teaching at the school is, though - if your child is already fluent in several languages, you may be disapointed by the level of Spanish they teach to.

Ds school outstanding in sport and music.2 of his friends in trials for england rugby and many in orchestras etc.

noddy is the school in London even outstanding ofsted ones in my area of London to not offer anything other than token levels of sport and music.

I did what you clearly want to do. I have no regrets, though I did wobble a bit the first term dd was in reception and no doubt will continue to do so occasionally, as will you but you'd wobble much more the other way round, I think.

Being part of the local community is great, walking to school is great. Our friends' dcs in private preps get 45 minutes a night homework from reception and despite their children still being 4 and 5 the parets talk obsessively about where they will go to for secondary school and compare academic progress. It is a huge turn off.

At dd's school there's no competitiveness between parents at all in terms of children's achievements/personal wealth. Dd is learning a lot, she is a very shy child but is becoming more confident by the day. The teachers are amazingly dedicated and committed, many teachers at the private preps I met tended to be Australian students on gap years.

You can transfer your child at almost any atage to private - places do come up all the time whatever you are told. So go for it and good luck.

I wasn't aware that peripatetic music teachers came into my dss' primary school to offer music lessons in some instruments when they started at the school - it wasn't something advertised in the OFSTED reports, etc, as the teachers involved aren't employed by the school and it is not part of the school curriculum, they are just allowed to come into the school and given time and space if there is sufficient parental interest. I think it might also be a requirement later on for provision to be made for all children to have access to learning at least one instrument, but my children aren't old enough for the compulsory element, yet, so I don't know much about that (except that there do seem to be an awful lot of guitars floating around the school at the moment). Do therefore ask the school directly whether anything like this happens, if it is of interest, rather than assuming that the only music provision at the school is that provided by the school during lesson time.

Likewise with sport - there is a reasonable amount of this each week at my dss' school, certainly not as much as in a private school, but those children most interested in sport tend also to go to the after-school clubs (these are generally straight after school, so parents don't have to do any picking up or ferrying around, and are sometimes taught by teachers and sometimes by external people, and if taught by external people, might be a couple of pounds a session, rather than free). Children from the school seem to get involved in quite a lot of local competitions and trials; there are also netball and football matches against local state primaries and private prep schools.

ps our dss' school also has a reputation for adding particular value to those children with special needs and children with "English as Another Language". I haven't noticed this as being to the detriment of the brighter children, though - it is a big enough school to have good facilities to deal with children with extra needs of one sort or another.

I went to a private prep and then a comprehensive. My class from the prep were way ahead of the pupils who came from state primaries and we were much more certain of, for instance, our tables - basic facts in other words, on which the rest of your education is founded.

DD went to a state primaries. I have no reason, from my experience with dd and from reading threads here, to think that this disparity will have changed.

If I could have afforded it I would have sent dd to a private prep and then gone to state education. No question.

I guess it depends on the child and the school. I left state primary school knowing my times tables and other basic "facts." I am sure some of my contemporaries didn't - I picked things up easily and didn't need lots of practice and repetition to do so. If I had neither had special needs, nor been particularly bright, I might have needed more attention than was actually provided??? Or better self-discipline/parental input?

FWIW, advice from headmaster friend (head of an independent, selective, age 2-18 school) is that for reasonably bright children the gulf between state and private achievement levels (in his opinion) only opens up at 11+ - in other words, for his rising-11 entry he sees not much difference, but he sees children switching into his school from the state sector struggling above that.

I know that is a purely subjective opinion, but the point is that you could have all the community and other benefits of local primary and still choose private options at senior level if you wanted to - by which time your DC would have established local friendships which would probably survive them moving to a different school.