Thinking of sending DC to average state primary even though I can afford excellent private pre-prep - would you do the same?

[sanam2010]

I was looking at the many excellent private pre-preps here in London before DC was born and had already chosen my favourites, but since DC was born I have had a complete U-turn and want to send her to the local community primary instead - took some time to convince DH but he is now on board. We could afford private for two or three children so looking at other people, colleagues etc it seems my choice is very unusual and I am wondering what people think about my reasoning:

PRO-STATE

• The local community primary is just 0.2 miles from our house, right next to a beautiful local park, whereas all the private schools I like are 10-20min drive. There is one good local private school in walking distance (Thomas'), but it wouldn't be my top pick
• Although the Ofsted report is only "good", the state school has a new headteacher and they do seem to be a vibrant school working hard towards outstanding status. Also, the report notes many children in the school come from immigrant families and have below average skills when they start, but that the school does an excellent job to get them to average level or better, so the teaching is good.
• the report also notes that the school is outstanding in terms of children's welfare and care and that the children are very happy, have a huge playground and that the parents are very satisfied with the school
• In terms of afterschool care, there is an outstanding Catholic school next to it where all children from the borough going to state school can go until 6pm every day, it is organised by the teachers of the outstanding school. The private schools on the other hand usually don't have after-school activities all week and only up to 4.30 or 5pm, so as I work full-time I would have to pay an afterschool nanny on top to pick up the children from school and bring them home and take care of them until we come home from work
• In terms of the curriculum, the state primary teaches Spanish as a modern language, which I find much more useful than French which all the private schools teach. I know private schools can teach other languages but French is compulsory, and as my DC is already growing up trilingually I am not eager for her to have to learn French on top of that at such an early age
• Although we can easily afford private, I still think we could do something more useful with the money. With afterschool clubs, uniform, after-school nanny etc I estimate the cost of private here in London will be 16-20k per child per year, and that will add up over the years
• I guess I can try state and if I am not happy always switch DC to private at 7+, at least I will have saved 60k or so
• I also like the idea of DC getting to know normal children from the neighbourhood rather than being driven to private school further away and only interacting with children of investment bankers and diplomats

PRO-PRIVATE

• The academics obviously, especially as Ofsted report suggests the local state primary does not cater well towards very able children (though it is very good at bringing below average children up to speed)
• In terms of the environment I like the idea of DC studying together with children who have a very good work ethic and desire to learn. I assume that at least at very good private schools the work ethic would be much better

I don't see many more reasons to choose private, so looking at that list you will understand why I am hesitating to even register DC with any of the private schools that I had looked at (I was looking at Cameron House School in Chelsea, Eaton Square School in Belgravia and Knightsbridge School - they all look fantastic to be honest but I am still not sure it is really worth it).

What would you do?

So well said rabbit - I agree with every word. Coming from an intelligent, accomplished, well-off family is a huge advantage in life - many older people reassure me of this.

Also, for everything there is a time....
a time to word hard, a time to have fun,
a time to be earnest, a time to be lighthearted etc.

gladis - that sounds great, I am happy the choice is working out so well for you. I have similar plans about keeping the money for interesting holidays/adventures/sports or future university fees etc.

Also completely agree that this complete gearing towards Oxbridge is very outdated, from times when this is what you needed to become a top civil servant and no immigrants were here to compete for jobs. It sounds like people choose the private nursery so they pass the assessment for the private pre-prep so they get into the right secondary school which will get them into Oxbridge which will get them where exactly? I totally believe that you can get to Oxbridge by other means, and also that you can become an outstanding doctor/entrepreneur/whatever without Oxbridge. It works for some people but to have the whole education system geared towards that purpose is madness.

I think if you want to keep your money for later, it might be safer not to look at private schools, because then you start picturing your DC in that cute little uniform playing the violin etc and that's when parents hand over the cheque. I think I won't register my child at any of the private schools, as perfect as they look, to force myself not to go for it, as I am rationally completely against it, but I know these schools will look fantastic when you go there. I guess the fact that I went to state primary and state grammar school also helps my conviction that private school is not necessary for my children to succeed, and I want them to succeed by their own efforts like their parents did, they have to work hard for it just like we did.

am a bit about the idea that by sending them to state school you are allowng them to succeed 'by their own efforts'...

It's the old 'private school kids are spoon fed and stupid' argument by the back door.....

I understand the OP's dilemma - we had a similar choice but the private school was in walking distance. It had a much buzzier atmosphere than the primary school, a more inspiring head, better sports facilities and smaller classes. All of these things are working in our children's favour at the moment.

The OP's comments about wrap around childcare do resonate though - we have had to keep our Nanny on for the time being. There are a range of after school clubs but these finish at 4.15 which is not great for working parents.

Haven't read every post so sorry if it's been said before BUT ... this is January 11 and my ds aged 5 doesn't go back till Thursday 13th Jan! I'm watching my son and friend playing Lego on the carpet and though am pleased they have playdates with variety of friends, I am beginning to resent these crazy holidays - 4 weeks at Christmas and 2 weeks for half term then another 4 weeks for Easter etc. Am trying and failing to get any work done. (This is my mini break going on MN). My dh and I are constantly negotiating for time to work as we take it in turns to do childcare. Can't afford nannies etc. and grandparents pay for fees. Other parents and ourselves feel the school is excellent and ds very happy there, but we spend all our time juggling in the eternal holidays.

This is the other price you pay for private schools.

He went to nursery at local state primary with local friends who all went there. Very hard decision to go to excellent private though quite near too. Stay in touch with these friends though increasingly hard with different school commitments and time. I almost wish he hadn't got into the private school sometimes so wouldn't have had a choice.

Good luck to you. Agree with other posters that it's as much about loving, educated, supportive family. My stepdaughter did PGCE and said most influence comes from home and not school anyway.

I know your gut feeling and heart are to go with the state school but I would ask some hard questions of the school and do your research thoroughly.

For instance in South London at the "good" very oversubscribed state school we were delighted to send our eldest DD to - we discovered that out of the 48 children in Year 6 they ended up going to 25!! different secondaries. Most of our friends at the local playgroup which was next door to the school who said they were going to send their children so "we would all be together" actually had their names on the waiting list for better state schools just outside the borough and left as soon as places came up or they went private in the end. This meant that most of the children at the school lived some way off and most came to school by car, glad to escape the even worse schools where they lived ( or they had lied etc to get in) - no nice meet ups enroute as I had imagined.
The year group was unsettled with children leaving every month as their parents moved to better areas or back near their parents in the "shires" or sent their children private. The places were immediately filled but it was disruptive. My DD also spent a lot of her time "helping" first generation immigrant children, watching Disney DVD's and being "quiet". Try to speak to some parents who have children at the school and ask the school about secondary routes and number of leavers during a term/year.

After 3 trips to casualty at lunchtime with my DD over the year and parents having fights in the playground that neccessitated a police presence from then on ,the final straw came in Year 2 when her teacher told us that she couldn't tell us much about our DD except that she was good and would easily pass her SATs and that she (the teacher) needed her energies for the "others".

We left and HE'd as we had always been anti private (but were tempted). We still believe that if everyone used their local school things would be fine in the state system.
In fact our youngest child is in the local state school where we now live (on the south coast) and it is fantastic, busy, lively a real community and all the children go on to one of the 2 local secondaries- if this had been our first experience we would never have lost faith in the State system.

I know this is a long horror story but I just felt so naiive and foolish that I had so little real idea about the school and had swallowed the Ofsted, school visit and other parents' enthusiasm hook, line and sinker without exploring the deeper truth.

However, it could be fine - the state schools in the adjacent borough were very good and the class groups stable and places also become available in private schools in London regularly if ou do need to bail.

Good luck.

Rabbitstew put it very eloquently.

We sent our children to a nice, friendly local village school (good Ofsted but not outstanding) when most of our friends sent theirs to the big prep in the nearby town.

We like it, for all the reasons that you mention. I like the kids, the teachers, the atmosphere, the other parents.

HOWEVER, DS1 is in a class of 35 (!), y3, and I really need to practise reading. writing and numeracy with him at home. As a parent, I find I have often have to fill in the "gaps" and keep a beady eye on things like times tables.

But I accept that is the price to pay for the amazing thing that is Free Education.

What is your reasoning for preferring teachers looking after your child during after school hours, rather than a nanny in their own home?

Off-topic, but sanam when I read your post I had a flashback to my childhood perspective (I grew up in Oxford, my father was an academic there, etc): I remember thinking Oxford students were very clever, very neurotic, quite ugly, and rather prone to suicide and mental health problems.

Or maybe that was just PPE students

I was about 10 at the time, of course

OP, I think when you go and have a good look at your possible choices, you will feel much clearer. Research is invaluable, but only ever tells half the story.

IARFN - the combination of employing a nanny plus school fees is a huge burden financially - one that suits them while they are small, but in a year or so I would be quite happy letting them do after school club til 5.30 when I can collect them.

My reasoning is purely financial.

Am disappointed that our school doesn't try harder to acommoodate families with 2 workng parents.

If your dc are going to attend the local school followed by the after-school care till 6pm at the Catholic school nearby, I think you do need to be realistic about the amount of tutoring or remedial work you will be able to do with them after school. In reception and also years 1-2, they will be quite tired I should imagine by the time they get home.

Have you considered employing a nanny to look after them when the state school finishes?

It depends what is important to you in primary school education but if for instance you would like them to begin learning an instrument, they need to be reasonably fresh for their daily practice. In the same way, in a class with many pupils, of whom a considerable number are below average attainment in English, you might choose to supplement the work covered in school, in particular if you plan on moving to a selective private for secondary. This type of thing could be managed more easily with a nanny perhaps.

Good luck making a decision. It is very hard to choose.

ZZZenAgain, surely it can't be normal that even reception age children need their parents help to complete homework? when I went to school, if I didn't understand something I would ask the teacher, or call my friends from my class and discuss. If a 6 year old already needs help to add 4 + 2, then I really don't see how it is ever going to become independent and excel at secondary school. My parents' approach was always to let me do everything on my own, and only help in cases where it was really needed. I am really convinced that mothers sitting with their child over homework every afternoon sets the child up for insecurity and difficulties to work independently on their own in later life.

What I do find parents need to do is just create a generally stimulating environment apart from school work, such as reading bedtime stories every night, singing songs with the child, going to parks and museums on the weekends etc, I think this is what leads to children performing well academically in the long run much more than helping them with their homework. With two working parents, the time available for that is limited of course, which is one reason why I still think of sending DC to private school sometimes, because I am worried I might not have enough time myself to stimulate DC as much as she needs.

With nannies, I think they would be great if they were very well educated and qualified, I just think they are less likely to be so than a good teacher at an outstanding school, so it is really the quality control that worries me about nannies - how can you be sure they are really good when you hire them? I know the agencies claim all kinds of things about how well they are chosen, but I see a lot of nannies in my neighbourhood here and most of the time I must say I am not impressed. When they go to the playground they actually just meet up with the other nannies and chat with them while letting the children sit around listening to the nannies chatting in Tagalog (Filipino language), many of them have incorrect grammar when they do speak English, and I often see nannies with children on the bus etc not engaging with them whatsoever, they just collect their paycheck and don't bother to do much else. I am sure there are great nannies, but from observation you have to be lucky to get a very good one, and then again she will be very expensive. But it's an option I am keeping in mind, in case I do find a way to hire a very qualified nanny. I think if private schools just extended their afterschool care to 6pm like the state-schools they would make life easier for a lot of working parents, but maybe there aren't enough working mothers for the schools to bother.

Sanam, you may find that a reception child needs to be encouraged just to get down to homework. Plus you need to suggest reading with them every night etc.

After a couple of years or so of homework I'd guess children would be organised enough to embark on it with no prompting but not in the early days.

Also, there are plenty of well educated nannies out there. It depends what you're looking for, some people want someone who's more of a housekeeper and may not be so up on stimulating the children, others want the opposite. If you're really lucky you can find both. London is full of clever women from all over the world who need work, often to fund their own studies.

We are going for our local State primary school, which is exceptionally good, and was part of the reason why we bought a house where we did.

The one thing all our friends with children in private schools talk about though is Class Sizes. State primary = 30 in class, Private pre-prep = 15 max.

Our local State primary does have teaching assistants in every room, plus I think parents volunteer too, but I don't know if it is still a really big difference.

When we were kids, my sister and I went to the local State primary school.

For various reasons, my brother instead went to a very academic private prep.

I can just remember him having so much more homework and stress as a 6-9 year old. My sister and I would have 20 minutes of spelling & some reading, then would be free to play. Andrew at the same age had 90 minutes of serious prep. He would be in the Dining Room being forced to study, whilst the two of us would be playing.

Not sure if the difference is still the same today.

We all 3 got similar GCSE, A Level and Degree results. I don't think Andrew being able to do things like geometry, French & Latin aged 8 made any long term difference.

I always thought we would do state till 11 for our DDs and then see... (we are lucky enough to be able to afford private but the thought of saving £60k or more for holidays/cars etc is a big incentive! And the local friends thing).
To that end I am putting DD1s name down for local state schools (we live rurally).
BUT I went to see the local private prep school (a twenty minute drive away) the other day -- oh dear. It isn't the academic thing I am so worried about - just that in the private school all the children were so smiley and polite, holding open doors, talking to teachers "Mrs this", "Mr that", "Please", "Thank You" and "Excuse Me May I"s... The foundation stage head teacher was wonderful and all the littlies were doing number and letter games sitting on the floor at their teacher's feet. Even their free-flow play time was based around educational principles.
After a conversation with a friend who did state till 11 then expensive public school, I am now also really worried about how state educated children fit in with the children at private schools when they switch. This might not be such a big deal in London, but I think it may matter more in the country.
And yet another mother has given me the wobbles by saying that she and her children never fit in at the state school because they were perceived as 'toffee nosed' because they lived in a big house, were into country sports etc.
Now I really wish the private school was closer...

All state and private schools differ.

At my daughter's state school they have good manners, and come from a mix of backgrounds. I imagine it isn't always like that.

In some ways I don't want my daughter to say please/thank you/excuse me every second sentence. My friend's children can barely utter a word without being corrected to squeeze in a please/thank you and I find that stiffling. My neighbours were attracted by the manners and pleasantness of the local private school, but I like a little bit of 'rough and tumble' too - they are children with explosive minds and personalities and I don't want all aspects of their behaviour to be tamed too quickly.

OP - do check that the after school arrangements at the school you like are as you think they are. IME the teachers themselves do not provide the afterschool care: sometimes teaching assistants do, often it is co-ordinated by a nursery etc, and do not have highly qualified teaching staff as such, though hopefully they all have some level of NVQ in childcare or health.

And whilst afterschool clubs have a far number of reception and year 1 children in them, often older children want to join afterschool activities eg sports, music, brownies/cubs, and the children left in afterschool clubs miss out. The afterschool childcare clubs often talk a big game (clubs with the club etc), but don't have the skilled sports coaches, music teachers, chess coaches etc that local clubs have.

Again, all of this may not be a big deal for your child, especially in the early years. But if your child turns out to have some talent, then that may need more time and better facilities in which to be nurtured.

thanks for all your responses. I am still undecided but at least after following the whole thread I have changed my mind and will at least register DD with about three or four private schools that I like and keep her options open. It didn't help the state primary I had my eye on that their new SATS results were awful and they went from slightly below average to far below average in terms of performance. I am really not sure if I could justify not giving my children the opportunity to develop their full potential, especially as we can afford it.

I guess it is time to visit all the schools, register and then wait and see.

Thanks again everyone for sharing all your experience and thoughts.

also if anyone has views on Eaton Square School, Knightsbridge School and Cameron House School I'd appreciate it, as I haven't found many reviews of those. I am interested in a few other better known ones that have been discussed here quite often, but these three I had a hard time find parents info on. thanks.

Read this - this is somebody like you, who discovered that the pros you list are not always as positive...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1051457-I-now-regret-not-joining-the-mad-London-scrabble-for

By sending your child to the local primary u will not only do your child a favour, but the community u live in too. U will be helping to ensure that the school stays good.

Local schools suffer when intelligent and articulate parents take their children and their interest elsewhere, apart from worsening the daily traffic chaos of the school run.

Lovely Masha but I do hope they won't learn to write 'u' instead of 'you'.

Wow! what a lot of long posts on this thread! Someone may have already said this but a 'good' OFSTED report is brilliant - only the top 13% of primarys in the country are 'outstanding'. Our school has just been celebrating a 'good' status awarded last month, and has a similar 'below average knowledge and skills' intake.
Your school sounds lovely and I would count it being 2 minutes walk away as an enormous bonus.

And Sanam, reception children are 4, not 6! I chuckled at the image of 4 year olds phoning their friends to talk about some homework they hadn't understood!