Punishment for slow clothes changing - if this OK or 'weird'?

[Solo2]

One of my twin boys aged 9 - was upset this morning after I'd told him off for leaving behind his school jumper and blazer yesterday. He said he hadn't had time to remember those clothes/ put them on
last night.

Then it emerged that one of the sports teachers (a recently qualified young man) is v v strict about children changing quickly after Games and if you're not changed within 5 mins, this is the punishment:

He makes you change back into Games kit and then back into uniform again as quickly as you can and possibly more than once and he also keeps you in for morning break time and the whole of lunch break!

To me, this sounds way over the top, especially if the child involved might have dyspraxia or be anxious about changing quickly.

I also felt concerned that the teacher must therefore be watching a boy, on his own in the changing room, dress, undress and dress again and again....isn't that a bit 'weird'?

Additionally keeping the child in for both playtimes of the day, seems way ott too.

In this context, I could well understand why DS1 was upset this morning to the point of tears, as he and his twin are both v slow changers and he'd naturally do anything he could to change and get out of the cloakrooms at top speed. Remembering additional items of clothing, won't be his top priority. All children have to contend with tying a tie as well as the other usual clothes.

I verified the story with DS2 - who is v sensible and honest and both agreed with what DS1 had said and said one boy recently, at least, has been forced into this punishment - a boy who's first language is not English and who has also had other problems settling at school and feeling happy.

Can I have a MN reality check please? Is this just a normal method of discipline to help lazy children speed up changing their clothes? Am I reading too much into it?

Also, I can't possibly ask the teacher about it because a) I never see him in passing (despite the fact that he's also DS1s form teacher but is rarely around in the mornings and barely knows DS1. b) if I arrange a special meeting solely about this, it'll make a 'big deal' of it and seem as if I'm questioning the teacher's discipline and that might make him feel angry and undermined. c) I can't go above his head and ask another member of staff as that also would be perceived as making it a formal issue.

I just want to know to what extent this is being regularly manifested as a form of punishment and if he could find a different way of responding to slow changes - given that I'm worried one of my twins might be next in line?

Sorry, but the only way you can do anything about this is to talk to the teacher concerned or one of his colleagues.

You are concerned, I am concerned reading your post and yes it does sound way OTT.

So, it's down to you to say something - if he feels undermined he is in the wrong job. He should be able clearly and politely to clarify the goings on and set out his agenda.

If he can't - why are your children in his care?

sorry, it's just you have every right to question these practices. You are their parent, they only have you. Don't be intimidated

that sounds mean and unnecessary

write him a letter asking him to clarify the sanction

I wouldn't like this for my children at all.

Agree with the others

My ds is 9 and there is no punishment beyond a verbal telling off if a child is mucking about rather than getting changed. He would find it easy to get changed in 5 minutes unless it was swimming in which case it would probably take longer.

If my child was struggling, I would practice at home with a stopwatch. If he had co-ordination problem then I'd insist that he was given extra time.

I think that humiliation as punishment is very old-school and doesn't really work and the punishment is far too harsh for the crime.

This is a big deal. My school had a much lesser punishment (a "sammy snail" list) and it basically meant that I got labelled as lazy from a young age, and that I still get panicked if I think somebody is watching me get undressed (I am even self concious about taking my coat off in public) as I remember being humilated as a child. I was dyspraxic, but that hadn't been "invented" then so I was just clumsy and lazy.

poor children :(

Yes, of course punish them if they are messing about, but getting changed is complicated - all those buttons and zips to do - and a skill that takes some people longer than others.

I know I couldn't change my entire outfit that quickly now, and I am a 25 year old confident mother of two, not a scared little child.

I remember after a swimming lesson, everyone was getting dried, and our teacher (female, all girls school) came into the changing rooms behind me and grabbed my towel, and started drying my back vigorously with it in front of everyone.

I felt really terrible. we were 13.

It's a horrid thing to embarrass a child like that. I wasn't even mucking about. And she was widely reputed to be gay, so it did nothing for my terror of being 'fancied' by her.

We were always timed for 5minutes at our (all girls) High School too - the thought process being that us girls would just chat for ages whilst getting changed, which would delay the start of the next lesson etc.

Surely 5minutes is an appropriate amount of time for a child to dress themselves?

Although I do admit that the 'punishment' of missing both breaks is very severe, but see what you mean about not wanting to mention it and make it into an issue. Is it something you could bring up at parents evening with him, along the lines of "Yes Mr PE Teacher, DT1 loves PE, but does seem to be terrified of not getting changed quick enough, which is making him really anxiuos about PE, and ruining some of the fun for him" and see what the teacher says in reply?

What a mean punishment!

Surely the twit can conceive that some children get changed quicker than others?

OTOH there are some kids who are just blimming dawdlers with no additional needs or problems, so I can appreciate it must be frustrating for the teacher. But I think his punishment comes under the heading 'weird and useless'. I don't think it's going to speed up the dawdlers, the daydreamers or those with SNs, tbh.

What to do next? I agree, a note to clarify with the teacher and then decide your next step.

Solo, I'm soryr if I sounded like I was telling you off - I didn't mean to at all.

But sometimes it's important to stand up to a teacher - I've had a confrontation in the past with a teacher who was using a form of punishment I thought was unfair, and though she resisted saying she thought it was fair, she didn't do it to my child any more.

it was a matter of going head to head and saying, well, this is my child, I like you and your teaching but you can't do this to him.

We are still good friends and it didn't affect our professional relationship - she is very professional.

I'm struggling with the fact you can't see him for a wquick chat one day before or after school, and he doesn't know who your son is.
Our school has an open door policy and we are always told to come and have a chat if we are concerned - also, it may be the punishment isn't exactly as described, and the teacher could set your mind at rest. He will probably be glad of the chance to do so.

Phone up and ask to speak to him, or make an appointment to see him in person.

He's on a power trip.

The 'drilling' of doing a couple of fast racing changes sounds quite a good idea if it is just more practice needed, but keeping them in for 2 breaks for not achieving quite a tight time line seems unreasonable and a little mean to me- assuming it isnt due to messing about.

As fair as him being alone with children, thats a for me

I would also wonder what other unreasonable punishments he was using in class - if he's your ds's form tutor, the sooner you have a proper meeting the better. Have you any parent consultations lined up this term?

If part of the punishment is missing both morning and lunch break, would the child be allowed to eat their food?
When I worked in a school a new, young teacher, made some girls stay-in over lunch, giving them 10min at the end to eat lunch, except one got free school lunch. She really needed that meal and the canteen had packed up.
The Head of Dept found out and the teacher got in trouble.

Was the teacher in the army? Pupils are not solders but this is how he behaves.

OK. So it looks as if my reaction isn't so extreme and that I do need to talk to the teacher and get clarification at the least.

Can't have an informal chat with him as this isn't really what you do at this school and you rarely see teachers in passing. I had my 10 mins parents evening with him earlier in the term and all he could do then was read off a sentence from each subject teacher and admit he doesn't often see and doesn't really know DS1, who is in his form.

He supervises the changing rooms but doesn't teach my twins for Games at all.

I might see if I can arrange a proper formal chat with him about something else legitmate, eg that DS1 has struggles socially and academically this term and how is he getting on now - and then add something about my twins being v anxious about the new punishment meted out for clow changers after Games and could he clarify please.

I suspect he'll suggest that this isn't actually happening at all or that the twins have got it wrong. I suspect this because twice recently, he's denied something that a child has said happened - once in relation to DS1 and once in relation to another child we know - and pretneds that the child has been mistaken.

I happen to know that he's actually not being absolutely honest as in both situations, there were others who backed up the children's stories but the teacher is naturally believed above the children.

Eg, he runs the top Maths group - which neither of my twins is in but several of DS2's close friends are. He gave them hundreds of complex sums for halfterm work and even the known Maths genius in this set took 2 full days to complete them. Then the teacher denied he'd said all sums had to be done - but ALL the children had heard him say this. Also, he kept in all the form one breaktime because 3 or 4 of them were misbehaving. DS1 missed an important music ensemble he plays in. The teacher denied stopping him going to it....

So I need to think what to do so that the teacher doesn't fob me off but gets the message clear that I'm not happy with this kind of punishment.

He's very young and inexperienced and to me, looks like a little boy himself. I'm sure that it's this lack of experience rather than malice that guides his actions but of course the senior teachers will - and have - closed ranks if you ever complain about another teacher - understandably.

I might ask other parents to ask their children too about this punishment and see if I can get more feedback and information.

I'm still left feeling furious and outraged.

Blimey

Is there another school you could consider?

It's not very parent friendly is it - or child friendly come to that, nothing worse than telling children they are lying when they're not.

I would be thinking about moving schools. Really I would.

Sorry

Is this a private school?
Sorry, don't understand why you feel you can't go in and talk to someone in the school.

"
He's very young and inexperienced and to me, looks like a little boy himself. "

Are you trying to fool yourself? He makes children sweat and has a pleasure of doing that. Hi might look innocent but his behaviour is dangerous. I remember reading an article sometime ago when a school boy shot his PE teacher. The boy had some disability but the PE teacher made him play rugby and was humiliating him all the time. So, he took the gun (I think it was a shotgun) and shot him a few times. The teacher is alive, of course. But the point is that that was a sadistic provocation and this one is the same. I would try to change the school or complain to the LA or OFSTED (I do not know who to trust). May be he can be fired.

Doesn't sound like a school I'd want to teach in, or have my child be a member of.
I'd definitely be challenging him, and the same if my child was in his maths group.
FWIW, teachers closing ranks if there is a problem or an uncomfortable question being asked is a sign of greater flaws in he school.

If he's an NQT, he needs guidance and support in how to discipline appropriately and how to be consistent when setting work.
Teachers can fail their NQT year.

Humiliation and embarrassment are qualities that will hinder your sons' progress in life.

Protect your children and others from someone misguidedly given authority who is clearly warped and damaged emotionally - they will pick up on how he is and conclude his sort of behaviour is acceptable if he's approved by the school and possibly emulate it later on. Sounds like this man missed out on a career as a Sergeant Major.

No this doesn't sound a reasonabl expectation for a 9 year old.

Dd is 9 and attends a private school with a formal uniform (shirt not polo shirt, blazer etc) and would struggle with this. There eis a huge difference between messing about and not getting changed quickly and just being a bit slow.

I have lots of experience supervissing children getting changed quickly as a theatre chaperone and I can be pretty strict at time eg. if you are not ready and miss your cue you don't get to go on stage but this sounds way OTT.

sorry, but this is a very strange punishment. it is like something my dad would have been made to do in the 60's.

it doesn't sound right at all. defintely speak to the head and the teacher in question.

after reading your second post about ghim denying other things i would be changing schools. how involved is the head in such matters? it doesn't sound like the head is aware of anything if teh teacher is able to get away with denying things to parents and if teh head is involved thne that means he/she is condoning it.