Punishment for slow clothes changing - if this OK or 'weird'?

[Solo2]

One of my twin boys aged 9 - was upset this morning after I'd told him off for leaving behind his school jumper and blazer yesterday. He said he hadn't had time to remember those clothes/ put them on
last night.

Then it emerged that one of the sports teachers (a recently qualified young man) is v v strict about children changing quickly after Games and if you're not changed within 5 mins, this is the punishment:

He makes you change back into Games kit and then back into uniform again as quickly as you can and possibly more than once and he also keeps you in for morning break time and the whole of lunch break!

To me, this sounds way over the top, especially if the child involved might have dyspraxia or be anxious about changing quickly.

I also felt concerned that the teacher must therefore be watching a boy, on his own in the changing room, dress, undress and dress again and again....isn't that a bit 'weird'?

Additionally keeping the child in for both playtimes of the day, seems way ott too.

In this context, I could well understand why DS1 was upset this morning to the point of tears, as he and his twin are both v slow changers and he'd naturally do anything he could to change and get out of the cloakrooms at top speed. Remembering additional items of clothing, won't be his top priority. All children have to contend with tying a tie as well as the other usual clothes.

I verified the story with DS2 - who is v sensible and honest and both agreed with what DS1 had said and said one boy recently, at least, has been forced into this punishment - a boy who's first language is not English and who has also had other problems settling at school and feeling happy.

Can I have a MN reality check please? Is this just a normal method of discipline to help lazy children speed up changing their clothes? Am I reading too much into it?

Also, I can't possibly ask the teacher about it because a) I never see him in passing (despite the fact that he's also DS1s form teacher but is rarely around in the mornings and barely knows DS1. b) if I arrange a special meeting solely about this, it'll make a 'big deal' of it and seem as if I'm questioning the teacher's discipline and that might make him feel angry and undermined. c) I can't go above his head and ask another member of staff as that also would be perceived as making it a formal issue.

I just want to know to what extent this is being regularly manifested as a form of punishment and if he could find a different way of responding to slow changes - given that I'm worried one of my twins might be next in line?

As a Y3 teacher, so children 2 years younger than yours, I would time the children getting changed for PE - but only so that they could try to beat their previous time. children weren't punished for being slow, but peer pressure encouraged them to try their best. In fact, sometimes the faster children would help the slower ones by untying shoelaces/packing PE bags/etc. They COULD manage it in less than 5 minutes - but only after a year of practice.

If the teacher is likely to deny it, it may be worth going straight to the next person - head of year/key stage/school to speak to them about it, and explain that a number of children have backed the story up.

In answer to various questions and comments - this is an academically selective private school that is v difficult to get into and there are no others similar to it locally. So finding a similar school nearby is not an option.

There has been a v large turnover of staff in the last 3 yrs or so since a new head master arrived. New staff coming in are almost exclusively young and inexperienced but - I presume - with good qualifications. the youg male teacher I'm referring to has Oxbridge qualifications and might be descreibed as a Maths geek - lacking in social skills (blushes madly if he talks to parents) and teaching experience.

In relation to the top maths group situation, a mother went and complained to the deputy head. There was a mixed response but the assurance that the teacher invloved HAD told children they needn't complete all the sums. That parent wasn't satisfied but left it at that.

I still haven't had the chance to meet the teacher again or talk to other parents/ children to get a broader picture of what's going on.

The head and deputy head won't know the minutiae of what goes on with various staff, I imagine and also the school has ben rapidly expanding over the last few years, going co-ed and therefore v 'busy' and in transition.

My rare experience of the head, however, is that he's v quick to please parents and might be less protective of staff (otherwise I wonder why so many have left so quickly?) but I don't want to go straight to him about this.

Meanwhile, I've told my twins that they must tell me straightaway if this punishment is meted out to them. However, typically, they rarely tell me anything at all that happens at school and only told me about the clothes changing punishment when it arose in relation to DS1 not having brought home/put on all his clothes. Otherwise, I'd not have heard about it.

It's difficult because children will accept and not question what is part of their daily routine lives, even if it's abusive and not see it as something to disclose to a parent - and believe me, I tend to push more than most for some/ any info. about how school was today, as you just don't do informal chats with teachers or go into classrooms at all, except maybe once a term on a formal meeting occasion. Most of the teachers for different subjects, I've never met to talk to at all.

It may be that other staff also worry about the inexperienced teacher but are trying to give him a chance - or that they don't know - or that in fact I only got a distorted version of what it was all about from both my twins.

The best thing I can do is check the facts but also let the teacher involved know that, should this be his idea of a good punishment - then I'm not at all happy with this. It's a good thing really that he doesn't teach DCs any lessons!

booyhoo wrote:

"it is like something my dad would have been made to do in the 60's."

Bring back the 60s.

Don't think I'd be happy paying for a school that has a high staff turnover, inexperienced teachers, a culture of excluding parents and bizarre punishments.

Do your children like the school?

Replacing lots of experienced teachers (who had presumably been teaching at the school when it gained its wonderful reputation) with lots of young inexperienced teachers would be ringing HUGE alarm bells for me. Especially when the young inexperienced teachers in question don't seem to be very good at teaching (as in this case).

very poor judgement on his part, his behaviour is making children vulnerable and him open lots of allegations.

lets be honest this type of punisment was common practice in some of our schools in the day and what did we think of the teachers that did this...pervert...he probably isnt but he may one day find himself in hot water.

he is in the least using his power in humilite and this is wrong and abusive.

I would raise it with the head teacher, if you are worried that you cant speak to another teacher in fear of going over his head. also put it in a way that you are worried about his lack of judgment and raising it in terms of supervision rather than a complaint in terms of the teacher. i wouldnt be feeling to protect him tbh he needs to know this punishment is wrong.

Harvalp?

it might be highly selective and sought after but sounds like a shithole i would get my LO's out of there.

Solo - all I have read from you is a series of excuses and reasons why you cannot / should not speak to ANYONE at the school about this. Do you really think that those reasons are more important than the safety and security of your own children???

Sorry that sounds terribly harsh but I really think that in these circumstances you need to put aside your own feelings and reasons (however heartfelt and genuine they are) and make an appointment with the Head asap. If nothing else it will show to the teacher that he is being monitored which may in itself change his methods

"I've told my twins that they must tell me straightaway if this punishment is meted out to them. "

OP sorry but you already know this is the punishment that they get. surely it is better to speak to the teacher now and tell him you think it is unacceptabel than to say "when it happens i will do something about it"?

i don't understand your hesitance here. you know it is happening, don't wait for it to happen again before you do something. at that point your child ahs already been humiliated and upset. why risk that happening?

i don't understand how a NQT thinks this is acceptable. he is just qualified, policies and procedures are fresh in his head. he is bound to know this is wrong.

"what did we think of the teachers that did this...pervert...he probably isnt but he may one day find himself in hot water."

my thoughts exactly.

this teacher is leaving himself wide open to accusations.

Oxbridge qualifications do not necessarily good teachers make, even in academicaly selective preop schools.

It sounds like a way to put a child off PE for life.

I WILL be speaking to someone at the school about this but I only heard about this yesterday from my DCs. So there hasn't been time to check it out/ arrange to see a teacher yet.

My only hesitation, voiced here, with going above his head is that my twins may have got it wrong and it might have been something slightly different along the lines of a teacher, jokingly saying, "come on now - anyone who can't change in the next 5 mins will be kept in at morning AND lunch breaks! Hahaha!" and the thing about the twins witnessing the punishment happening to one boy might have been the teacher trying to help that boy and trying to see what aspect of changing was the problem.

It might NOT be any of that but I don't want to rush in and make a big deal over something that might be a misunderstanding.

There may be teachers on MN who remember times that something happening at a school was distorted by the child who told a parent some 'horror' story and it all got out of proportion. I need to check the facts really and I think what I'll do is say, "BTW, DCs have come home all worried and with some horror story about a new punishment if you don't get changed in 5 mins! - loss of morning and lunch break and having to change and re-change in front of you several times!!! They said that this recently happened to Child X and are SO worried it might happen to them and really hate the idea of having to dress and undress several times in front of you. can you tell me more about this?"

That will immediately alert him to the fact that a parent is concerned and especially draw attention to my concern over him watching the children dress and undress. If there's truth in the story, he should by then be 'running scared' and I would expect he'd never do this again. If it's a distortion of the truth - or if he wants to back down from this - he'll tell me a different version of things and I can then emphasise how relieved I am as "to be honest, I was getting a bit worried myself!!"- again with the strong implication that his method is NOT OK.

Of course, if he reiterates that all this is true and that he fully believes that this is helpful to the children, then I WILL take things further with another teacher. In any case, I may well mention it to another member of staff, in passing, in the course of a different discussion.

Re. the school in general, I AM concerned about the staff turnover but there are lots of other things that are v good about the school and it leads into the senior school - which would be the choice of seniors locally for my DCs. They seem to love the school and all their friends go there. I suspect that what's really happening with the school at present is a transition and unfortunately, DCs have arrived at the same time. In many ways, I'm pleased it's gone co-ed, as it was previously v much a 'boy' school but there are also downsides to this too.

If this was me I would go into school before the end of the school day and tell the reception staff I needed/wanted to see the teacher before he left and would appreciate a meeting with the head at the same time.

Kids mess about and they need to be told to behave but what this person is doing is not on.

hate to say it but I know of at least two schools (both independent) where the quick change punishment at morning break is used. I would guess if the teacher is youngish perhaps his school did this when he was a child. I am more concerned that he is inventing his own sanctions. Consistency amongst the staff should be a key factor when applying sanctions or punishments. In fact, there should be some sort of school policy you can read yourself, ideally on the website but certainly in the school . Whatever, GET in there NOW and talk about it.

How did this go, Solo?

All the PE teachers at my school were sadistic weirdos. One was a horrific bully but got his comeuppance when one boy cracked and punched him in the face.

I hope you get this sorted, I wouldn't be happy.

Solo2, whatever you think about this school, it is clearly lacking any sense of direction at the moment, there is a lack of consistency in approach, unbelievably poor communication with parents, no satisfactory explanations for what is being done in the school's name (probably because the teachers themselves haven't thought it through) and by the sounds of things, low morale amongst the staff, who are too busy protecting their own backs to look after the children. You are being constantly fobbed off and are being too accepting of this. In other words, at the moment, whatever the school was like in the past, it is currently ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. And your ds is suffering the consequences.

Since you have enough faith in the school to believe it can get back on track, you really need to go in at once to speak to the Headteacher, explaining that you want to be supportive of the school, but also that you feel it is losing its way at the moment and that if something is not done to improve communication, parents will begin to vote with their feet and pull their children out altogether, along with all the experienced staff. This school needs to get its head out of its backside and you need to help it do that.

And please don't say you think it might be your children getting the story wrong - you've posted more than enough worried threads on mumsnet now to indicate that your child's mental health is being damaged by his attendance at the school. This is not fair on him or you. I know it is difficult when a school is going through a transition, but the school really ought to be managing it better - the transition should be the school's problem, not the children's.

(ps however much you feel the headteacher might be on the parents' side, he appears to be doing that in a way that is getting the backs up of the people working for him and is not communicating productively with them, so they are not communicating properly with him and no-one is thus able to nip any problems in the bud - he is not therefore managing effectively, even though he clearly intends to. He has to be liked and trusted by parents AND staff in order to be effective).

In fact, I think it is the Headteacher you should be most critical of. Everything appears to have gone seriously downhill since he arrived...

When I was at school (Direct Grant - so private school basis) if we were slow changing they used to make us do it quickly a few times, and as a result we were late out to play. It was an attempt at getting us to change briskly rather than a punishment, exactly, but not nice anyway.

It's horrible that the children feel so upset and anxious about it, so have a word - but I think it is OTT to assume that he is a pervert because of this.

I would go to the head. If I was the head I would want to know if one of my parents (paying customers!) felt like this and to have the chance to look into it and make any changes. I don't think you need to do it in a 'I'm making a complaint' sort of way, you can simply say that you have a number of 'vague' concerns about this teacher and can you get the head to check it out.

I'm sure at a private school, along with the welfare of pupils and staff, it is part of the heads job to ensure the parents are satisfied.