State education system, is it broken?

[minimathsmouse]

I believe the wheels have fallen off the state education system. You might not agree but I have read so many posts here from parents who have had and are still having huge problems with their child's school. Many people seem to have worries about standards of teaching, clashes of ideology and problems with making up the deficit with tutors and home study. Horrendous SEN provission, huge class sizes, lack of provision for able pupils, the list goes on. It is truely depressing to think so many children are not receiving the education they deserve.

How many people believe the whole system has failed? Are falling standards only due to poor teaching or wider problems that are not being addressed within the system?

Another one here in agreement that you just don't hear as much on here about the good experiences people have.

I have three children at the local state primary. It doesn't do so well in OFSTED reports but it's nothing like the description given in the OP. The SEN provision is excellent and the more able children are also challenged. The teachers are also excellent and I'd be more than happy to have my children taught by any of them. The class sizes are good too.

So I would say the system isn't broken at all from my perspective.

No, not broken. In flux, challenged, and to be challenged some more, with faults, yes - but going by my own admittedly limited experience, definitely not broken. Though it probably depends on the school.

We visited four schools (two state, two private) before choosing dd1's small State Primary, and she is nearly 7 now: happy, engaged, thriving, learning well, socially comfortable in just about any environment, and interested. All the kids are different, but they all love school.

Which is as it should be. dd2 is in the attached nursery, and has grown in confidence and loves it too.

Have to admit I'm a convert myself to the point where I, a former will-never-get-involved-or-bake-cakes hardnut, am involved in the PTA and have newly become a Parent Governor.

motherinferior - quite. Not broken for my bright enthusiastic older children. Neither for my arguably less 'bright', struggling youngest child who is being given plenty of extra help and support.

And both my DCs get individual interventions from TAs - for free!

If I wanted anything extra from a private school I would have to pay for it.

Working v well in my corner of S London!

I think there is a huge level of anxiety and panic about it, and the reasons for that are complex - and not all to do with what is actually happening, I think.

I have planty to compare it with: I went to private school and then a direct grant school (a private school where 50% of the intake is on state scholarships, done away with in the mosve to comps). My brother and sister went to state primary and then to comprehensive or state grammar.

I am very happy with DS's state primary, and with the choice of 2 comps close to us. Class sizes are the same as at my siblings state primaries, ds's education is as good / effective as mine was, and he actually has more chances to do extracurricular things within school time - arts and sports - than I did.

I am not happy about the 'sats factory' approach that schools are hooked into, but then anxious competitive parents glued to the league tables are as much responsible for that as the schools.

My children are both in private schools for secondary education as we don't like the local comprehensive, but we were happy with the state primary in a nearby village. Lovely teachers: very committed. Great head.

I think one of the main problems with the state sytem is that it is so darn patchy.

One school can be pretty bloody good, another can be dire.

I volunteer in one primary and am a governor at another. Both have huge but different problems.

That said, I have become unconvinced by how much the state system can do.
I used to believe that education could resolve much of the social inequality in the UK. I now think I was naive.

So perhaps, we have to accept that state education cannot be the great socail leveller we hoped it would be. That it cannot equalise the outcomes of different children from different backgrounds.

The results aren't there at the moment. People might feel happy but there are too many children taking a lack of literacy skills to secondary school. Those problems aren't addressed at secondary and you end up with the spelling mistakes on the CV and remedial work for undergrads. This isn't a socially mobile education system, that prepares the next generation for a global jobs market. Some will always do well, some are lucky at school, some are lucky enough to have genes and commitment from parents. You can't count on a state school to do the basics any more: some do, but you can't count on buying a house, going to the local school, and expecting a decent education. We should be able to and we can't.

It's unfair. It's unfair for children who don't have committed or moneyed parents. Out of self interest if nothing else, we ought to ensure that they get a damn good go at things.

You can't count on a state school to do the basics any more: some do, but you can't count on buying a house, going to the local school, and expecting a decent education. We should be able to and we can't.

Appletrees, I agree 100%.

So, what can we do about it? Let the Government tell us to set up and run our own schools, because they're happy to say the State's crap at it, so parents should take responsibility instead? We could run our own Port and look after our own forests, too. I know lots about ports, schools and forests, and I can always get money from the City to help me, because we all know what a reliable source of income that is for everyone. And then when we bugger it all back, the Government can buy it all back off us at taxpayers' expense (or bail us out, likewise at taxpayers' expense).

or b*gger it all up...

Well I personally disagree with the idea of Free Schools and I think schools should be left to the professionals rather than the parents.

I am not sure why some schools are failing children; I don't buy it's entirely the parents' fault though, as some schools in deprived catchment areas do amazing jobs and really raise expectations; some in really affluent areas fail children (rarer but it does happen).

Maybe someone on here who is a professional working at a not so successful school could enligthen as to what it is that doesn't work and what we could all do to improve it.

?the fact that we have a two tier education system with excellent, well resourced schools run by motivated, expert teachers and enterprising PTAs sitting alongside dire, even dangerous schools with a high staff turnover, no continuity.? Giddypickle
?So perhaps, we have to accept that state education cannot be the great social leveler we hoped it would be. It cannot equalise the outcomes of different children from different backgrounds.? Litchick

I agree with both of these points, in fact I think this illustrates exactly where the state system fails. The last Tory Gov, introduced the national curriculum in order rationalise all school provision, the labour party introduced lesson plans for specific terms in a further attempt to rationalise not just content but teaching methodology. This hasn?t actually achieved the desired outcome, because some schools are still excellent whilst others at best are mediocre and fewer still are failing. So it is a post code lottery.

Can State Education be the great social leveler? that is at the core of its purpose, but again it fails in this respect despite teachers having to juggle teaching and in many cases social work.

Will Free schools address these issues? Have state academies added to the apartheid within the system? How important is parent choice? If every school achieved good results, had the same ethos, policies, and teaching methodology would parental choice be less important?

Schools can be much more of a leveller than they are.

They are too dependant at the moment on parental input.

They depend on parents AT HOME to do the reading, to teach times tables ("learn 3x by next Thursday etc) and to supervise homework.

They should ensure they are capable of giving children sound education in these areas.

If that means abandoning other things such as humanities until the age of nine or ten, so be it. These basic areas will be missed while WW2 and Roman oil lamps and the Great Fire of London will not. These wider areas of education can be achieved by reading and outside activities and ONCE children have a sound basic education they will fly, they will have an engaged and enriched interest beyond them because they will be capable and confident.

It is NOT being achieved at the moment, because of methodology, or failing parents, whatever the reason.

Time for something really radical.

I would go so far as to say to parents who fear the loss of poetry homework for six year olds, or Pudding Lane -- here is where you can do your input, not with the basics. You risk your child's generation being at risk from, and paying for, generations ahead who have not been rescued from educational deprivation and if your child does not pay now with the loss of dress up day, he or she will pay later with a peer population that needs propping up and contributes little.

I agree Appletrees with your points entirely.

Thanks emy I feel very strongly about this.

AppleTrees - you talk lots of sense. I would definitely send my kids to your school :)

Appletrees, I concur. Parents teaching maths, teaching reading and all the basics, whilst school hours are needlessly taken up with other nonsense and social engineering!

This is exactly why state schools can not compete with private and why disadvantaged children who receive little parental support fall behind. Sadly for many the opportunity is lost for ever.

To me this thread just shows why we should allow different types of schools to be set up. Parents should be allowed to choose between different schools with different ethos and curricula, without people immediately shouting that it might cause 'inequality'. Clearly a monolithic school system is never going to please everyone and will only serve to disengage teachers, parents and children.

Appletrees I do too, and I have endless conversations with likeminded parents about it.

Our kids are not learning the basics and we prop them up all the time - I have often considered home education, but I am not brave enough to do it...

Emy72, I home educate my two sons, it really isn't so scary. My children are very happy and I love having them around. At the end of every holiday I was sad to see them back into school.

They now volunteer to read and study, they ask questions, they choose topics, both are making good progress and I am confident this change will probably mean they become life long learners.

Appletrees have you ever tried to teach a class of primary school children the 3 "r"s for 3 hours without doing any other activitY (except playtime which I presume would be OK)?
Or tried motivating children to learn to read and write without using any other subjects to make it more interesting?

Patience don't go away.. would love to talk to you about this.

You are a teacher? Can you tell me your routine? Would you mind?