Does a child that starts ahead generally stay ahead?

[NorhamGardens]

Looking at some of the other recent threads has got me thinking.

Looking at my brood the ones that started reception or Y1 in the top group etc tended to stay there going forward.

It's rare in our school for someone to move dramatically 'up' in the scheme of things. Sure a few do but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Increasingly I think that if a child is perceived as being more capable than average early on this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy going forward.

I'd say mine are all broadly similar in intelligence but some have been 'believed' in very early on which has given their confidence and subsequent progress an enormous boost.

Lovely.

Calling a whole class of children "inadequate".

Jesus.

skimmed thread i am afraid
in answer to op and in my experience NOOOOOOO
loads of quick starters bottom out and other real non academics throughout primary come good...

surprising when i looked back at ds primary pics and then saw what the secondary school outcome was - apart from the fact one girl was in prison the span was immense and often not at ALL what you would have predicted

One child was recently described to me as having been 'asleep' through primary school and had just got 3 A* and a couple of A's at A level

there's hope for my kids yet

Inadequate is ofsted speak Becaroo, although I agree, isn't a nice term!

They are great for teaching Literacy and Numeracy skills but sometimes when a child is in crisis or very stressed or whatever, they do take a back seat. I don't mean in every case and I'm generalising e.g. 'Please climb down from the roof oh I know, lets count the slates up there.' We obviously have very different school settings and regardless of what I say Msz and Feenie will criticse, strangely within seconds of each other. I'm not going to justify myself or my opinions anymore on here. I know I'm a good teacher and that the children in my care make progress, because of the way I teach.

Haven't read the whole thread.

Don't know if it's a MN thing, or everywhere in RL too, but can I just celebrate my dd? She is in Year 1, enjoys school, loves to socialise and, from what I can tell, is academically very average.

Hooray for her!

So, when you want to tell me that your DC can read Shakespeare or is on the GandT register, then fine, but don't expect me to be impressed with your parenting...

Just enjoy them and get off the league table way of thinking...

Glad it's not just me that's was speechless! In my class a significant number have seen/had a family member murdered/in prison/been abused/has drug abuse etc. The majority of them are on SA or SA+ and a statemented child. It is my job to make sure that they are provided with a safe place that educates them this year.

My entry levels are around a 1a/2c my target for them is 3a/4c - higher for some. They need these skills to break out of the very sad cycle they are in - I was one of these children so I am very passionate about it.

Was also going to make a comment about the amount of w/1c's I had last year at the beginning of year 2 and the level 3's I had by the end of the year but not sure there is a point.

Upsetting actually.

Inadequate is Ofsted speak for a teacher's competence or a school's performance not for a group of children

becaroo the class that I have inherited this year were graded as inadequate by the SIP. It's not that I think they are inadequate children, it's the teaching that they have had that is inadequate.

My class that I inherited last year also had the same grading of inadequate and then came out as good by the end of the year (in relation to national standards.)

I've also just skimmed this thread nut wanted to say: Roundtable: that is a fantastically impressive achievement.

You've obviously ignited that spark in those children, that gives them confidence and a belief that they too can learn and, indeed, enjoy it. I was a child who was written off by her first two primary school teachers and then flew with her third. I needed someone who believed in me. Teachers like you are vital.

Actually, I think our school settings sound very similar - it's the attitudes of the teachers that sound very different. We are all committed to caring for the children we teach - but some of us are also very committed to ensuring that our children are also as literate and numerate as they can possibly be - with no limits or boxes.

Wouldn't put a limit on a child's learning, they all deserve to make as much progress as they can. For some of them Level 3 is a massive achievement.

I'm very relieved to hear the first part. But please don't make the mistake of believing level 3 is the extent of any of your children's abilities in Year 6, however much it has already 'increased your VA score'.

Only mentioned the VA score as this is the current way ofsted measure progress. In addition, according to raise online data (generally estimates where children should be) these children are reaching their potential. Majority of these children do have SEN.

Would I love them to achieve a 4? Of course. Do I teach them to the best of my ability? Of course. Do they achieve a Level 4? Rarely, due to lots of circumstances, as mentioned earlier, which are not excuses by the way, but reasons for low attainment. Ofsted, were more than happy with our data and our pupil progress, hence the 'outstanding' label.

Yes, you keep 'only' mentioning things, Teacher!

"In addition, according to raise online data (generally estimates where children should be) these children are reaching their potential."

I am cringing for you here. Yet another comment that pigeonholes your children and puts a ceiling on their achievement. A kind of 'sod it - if our VA data is okay, and Raise Online says that's as far as the children should go, then I am doing a great job, aren't I?'.

Yes according to ofsted I am and according to the children I work with I am doing a good job. Nope not as a far as the children 'should' go but as far as some of them 'can' go. As I said earlier, I'd love for them to further but unfortunately they can't. I would do anything for the children I teach and often do. Obviously you are an amazing teach Feenie, as you 'only' mentioned your data earlier to prove this point.

"Nope not as a far as the children 'should' go but as far as some of them 'can' go"

It's this attitude that I can't get past though. Who says how far they can go? That again is limiting for these children. I can't ever imagine saying about any of our children 'that's as far as they can go, sorry', or ever being satisfied with the job I've done in these circumstances - I am constantly looking to do something better, differently, or in a more exciting way to help them achieve more and more.

"I'd love for them to further but unfortunately they can't."
But why? Who says they can't? Please never tell children that they can't.

I'm not saying you don't care, Teacher - although you accused me of being data driven, so I carefully explained to you why I am not. I'm not saying that you aren't committed, or that you don't work hard. But I do think your attitude towards how much you believe your children can achieve absolutely stinks, and is revealed more and more by every post.

Who says they can't? Education Psychologist, Speech and Language Therapist, and the statementing panel.

Have you never met a child who makes no progress despite you following every bit of advice and giving them every good bit of input/resource that you have? Yes these children will make progress, but not in terms of data driven levelling they won't. As the actual jumps between the levels are massive achievements for these children. Some children do just get stuck at a Level because they have reached their potential. I would of course never say this to a child and as I say have high expectations but I have seen children working so hard trying their best and just not making any progress because they are just unable to. I currently work with a boy who has a massive memory and retention problem and despite everything we are doing, unfortunately he is making very limited progress.

"Have you never met a child who makes no progress..."
Not as often as I've met ed psychs/ salts who inevitably don't know the children as well as I do - how can they? And certainly not a class full. But you are contradicting yourself, teacher - earlier you said that ALL your children make progress due to the way you teach. Also, to get Ofsted outstanding all your children would have to make good progress if your attainment is as low as you say?

"Additionally, although obviously we strive for Level 4, personally I think these children need life skills to survive and being able to write beautiful adjective filled writing, is not going to help them survive in the area we are in"

I feel a little uncomfortable with this statement as it implies very strongly that these children have to stay in this area all their lives. I can see how that could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Speaking as someone well aware that her own comfortable childhood was a direct result of her father and maternal grandfather escaping poverty because teachers spotted their academic potential- I am not happy with this.

I can see how a teacher could have thought that there was no reason my grandfather - one of a rather rowdy and out-of-control group of brothers, brought up in severe poverty by an alcoholic stepfather- would be able to benefit from any formal learning. But the fact is he was spotted, he was encouraged, he did escape from that situation and was able to dedicate his life to teaching and learning. And to bringing up his children to pass on their love of learning to their children. Of which I am one.

If literacy and numeracy had taken a back seat in my granddad's education, all our lives would have been very different.

I realise that "inadequate" is a term used by OFSTED. I still think it is a dreadful term when describing children/their abilities.

May I share my story with you?

My ds1 is now 7....he is a summer baby He had developmental delay as a baby (late to sit unaided, late to talk etc) but is fine now (very intelligent, fantastic vocab) apart from issues with literacy.

He began nursery at 3 (too young - he wasnt ready but the HT told me if he didnt go 5 mornings a week at 3 he would lose his place)
He went into reception a happy and bright child.

Within 4 weeks of starting year 1 he came home and told me he had a "stupid brain".

Ds1 being my first child I am afraid I was very ignorant of ability tables etc and didnt realise til parents eveing about 6 weeks into the term that ds1 was on the lowest ability table.

There were bullying issues (and had been since nursery tbh) which were ignored despite my repeated talks with the relevant teacher.

At said parents eveing we were told ds1 was "struggling". I asked ds1's year 1 teacher how we could help him....was met with a blank stare. He was put on an IEP (without our knowledge) but in practise he didnt get the 10 mins help per day he should have. In the whole academic year his year 1 teacher read with him 3 times.

I asked the SENCO to assess him as I was worried about dyslexia...they dont assess til they are 7.

I researched ways to help him and he completed on online early reading programme called "headsprout" which helped him although he found the last few sessions hard. We also used toe by toe for a while but had to break off during this summer (various reasons) and whilst I have tried to begin again he seems to have genuinely forgotten stuff he knew 3 months ago.

Whilst at school he was made fun of for being "slow" and was told he was on the "thick table" I told his teacher this. Nothing was done.

I should have removed him there and then but i had just had a new baby so I didnt. I regret it deeply.

By the time he started year 2 the damage was done. He hates literacy. Will not read. Thinks he is stupid. I took him out of school in january this year after another serious bullying incident and have been home schooling him since then.

I have loved HEing him but i am not sure its whats best for him the long run and as a He parent there is no funding for extra help i.e. dyslexia testing.

He is going back to school shortly
(hopefully in a month or so) to a school about 3 miles away from where we live.

He is very "behind" where he should be wrt the NC in literacy. I think he is ok in numeracy...better than me in fact!!!!

The HT at his new school was very helpful and he will be assessed when he starts. I know if they think he needs assessing it will be done.

BTW the school I took him out of was rated "outstanding" by OFSTED....I am sure why you can see I set very little store by that.

I am not sure how my ds1 will cope back at school...he is having a "phased return" i.e. mornings only for a while.

I am hopeful for the future but I was wondering.....have any of you teachers taught or known of a child like my son who has gone on to read successfully??

Spot on, Cory.

Hear, hear, Cory!!

Teacher 401, this comment struck horror into my heart:

Some children do just get stuck at a Level because they have reached their potential. I would of course never say this to a child and as I say have high expectations but I have seen children working so hard trying their best and just not making any progress because they are just unable to.

You are not my son's teacher last year are you? This might have been spoken by her. She believed the class was divided into the slow to learn, average and quick to learn and this was decided by genetically inherited IQ and unlikely to change very much going forward. She, like you appear, was also a decent person and committed to her job. Some just were 'middle ability' so what could we do? Wouldn't ever be the high achievers who were currently being extended in the next class. The fact that many of the 'middle ability' might also have benefitted from similar stretch seemed to bypass her. The decision as to who was 'high ability' also seemed to be fairly arbitrary given no distinction was made between maths and literacy.

Unless there are real, identified learning impairments ability does not have a ceiling in this sense. I fear that the NC 'levels' in some hands are a dangerous thing. For example, teachers looking to see who can use good connectives and openers and who can't and believing on some level that some are more permanently able than others.

This attitude permeates into the classroom IME with children living up exactly to the expectations we place upon them be they 'slow', 'average' or 'quick to learn. Self fulfilling prophecies all around.

Hear, hear on this too:

You've obviously ignited that spark in those children, that gives them confidence and a belief that they too can learn and, indeed, enjoy it

Children need to 'believe' they deserve an inspiring teacher that believes the sky is the limit.

Teacher 401 read up on the lady in the States who taught calculus successfully to a group of apparently very low achieving children whom everyone had written off. Against a back drop of drugs and flick knives!

Will try to find a link for you.

It was Marva Collins who took on the challenge of the inner city Chicago kids who had failed so far in school.

She said if children are treated as if they can't handle more they tend to live up t this expectation. Marva treated these inner city kids like geniuses. Many had actually been labelled 'retarded', 'learning disabled' and 'emotionally disturbed'. They'd lost hope and couldn't be bothered to try any longer. They had incredibly difficult home lives in the main.

She was incredibly successful. She started her own school later on and had 4 year olds writing things like 'Aesop wrote fables'. One of her students was labelled a 'retarded six year old' and four years on read 23 books over the summer including A Tale of Two Cities and Jane Eyre.

Very upsetting that teachers feel this way, that some kids are slow, average or more able and that's that. I have encountered a few like that from our 'outstanding' school. They seem to like the ones who are good readers and compliant, possibly the older ones in the class who already sense they are ahead.

Takes a good teacher and encouragement from parents for children to be able to do so much more that they realise, sadly not all children get this.

Falko Rheinberg did some interesting research in Germany. She studied a group of teachers and their attitudes to their pupils.

Some of the teachers had fixed ideas and believed that the students entering their class with their different achievement 'levels' were deeply and permanently different:

'According to my experience students' achievement mostly remains constant in the course of a year. If I know students' intelligence I can predict their school career quite well.'

'As a teacher I have no influence on my students' intellectual ability'.

In their classrooms the children that started in the year in the high ability group tended to stay there and those who started in the low ability group also tended to stay there.

Some other teachers had a growth mindset. They focused on the idea that all children could develop their skills, and in their classrooms something strange happened. It didn't matter what group a child came into both groups ended the year way up high

Huge differences seemed to disappear under the guidance of teachers who taught for improvement, they had found a way to reach their 'low ability' students.

This comes from Carol Dweck who also makes the interesting and relevant point I think that if teachers have fixed ideas about ability or fixed ideas that home life is bound to limit potential to learn and grow etc it can inhibit learning. Other people are judges not allies.