Does a child that starts ahead generally stay ahead?

[NorhamGardens]

Looking at some of the other recent threads has got me thinking.

Looking at my brood the ones that started reception or Y1 in the top group etc tended to stay there going forward.

It's rare in our school for someone to move dramatically 'up' in the scheme of things. Sure a few do but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Increasingly I think that if a child is perceived as being more capable than average early on this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy going forward.

I'd say mine are all broadly similar in intelligence but some have been 'believed' in very early on which has given their confidence and subsequent progress an enormous boost.

I'm exactly the same Mrz and symapthise. The data driven comment wasn't really aimed at you, it was aimed at earlier comments that I'm holding children back due to their target only being a 3B. As for a Level 4 changing a childs life I fail to see how it would, but maybe you have experiences I don't have.

Self esteem is a wonderful thing

Problem is Mrz, some of the children I teach respond really well to praise etc. but hate being levelled and if I said to them 'You're a level 4' they absolutely hate it, as they want to be seen as streetwise and one of the lads. I actually had a boy get 10/10 in a mental maths test a few weeks ago, he was really embarrassed and asked me not to show his Mum or put him up for praise award, as I was going to.

Meant respond well to praise in the classroom e.g. stickers and those sorts of things.

I don't think they particularly need to know the level (or even get rewards) to feel good about the quality of the work they are producing.

Confused now, you said earlier getting a 4, will boost self esteem, yet now you're saying they don't need to know the level.

Sometimes just knowing your work is valued is better than any number. Our children love sharing their work because they are justifiably proud of what they produce. The know what high quality work looks and sounds like so they know they should be proud of themselves if that makes sense. Ofsted says we should tell child the level they are working at but I'm not sure numbers mean as much as "wow" from their classmates.

I don't think this is always true. Children with parents who teach them things at home when they are younger tend to be ahead but then there are the naturally gifted children who may have been born into a family who don't do anything extra with the children and their attitude to learning might develop at a slower rate as it is more alien to them.

Haven't read all the posts so don't know if someone has already brought up this point about the AGAT register - it applies to the top 10% of the school, which could vary differently to the top 10% of the school down the road and then when they go to secondary that could mean this could change yet again depending on their intake that year. Ridiculous government policy the AGAT register, as it so inconsistant from school to school(one of many)it shouldn't be a blanket 10%.

Just read some of previous posts and was very interested to read what teacher said. I have worked in 'deprived' areas (inner city types, I'm a teacher too) and in my experience these school have money pumped into them and the turn around is amazing from reception below av to yr 6 leaving national standards due to the reources. This can sometimes with inner city schools - cue controversial statement - be related to the ethnicity of the parents too.

I now work at a school in a commuting town, where many parents are very comfortable but like every town, there's deprived areas. I work in one of those deprived area schools in suburbia but this school has such a small budget in comparison as they are labelled with the rest of this leafy town. So sad that there are such inconsistancies with education in this country.

"I don't agree that 'good' teaching is the single factor in turning children's education around, it is actually 'good learning' that is considered to be of greater impact."

That's fine - we can agree to disagree if you like, and I actually think you are splitting hairs a little. But that's what our headteacher says, and he has turned our school around completely.

"We do our best but unfortunately when you are faced with a child, who is so worried about how Mum is at home, or when he will next get to eat, that whether he knows his times tables doesn't really come into it."

You see, I think it does. I'm not going to swap competitive sadding stories with you - I have explained the problems our children face with very basic needs such as food and clothing. I just consider both education and nurture to be equally as important. Our care, guidance and support was also found to be outstanding this year, and Ofsted said a strong commitment to the care, support and guidance of children is 'at the heart' of our school. They also said there are 'striking examples' of several situations where we helped children to 'overcome significant barriers to their learning.'

I just think it's possible to do both, and it rings alarm bells for me when a teacher says things like:

"it doesn't make sense to tell parents as it just causes problems when they don't get great results", or talk about children "who are at level 2a and only meet (sic) to have 3b at end of year" or "as for a Level 4 changing a childs life I fail to see how it would, but maybe you have experiences I don't have."

How can you 'fail to see' how it could be life-changing? A child who is not a level 4 reader is likely encounter huge problems accessing the secondary curriculum. A child who does achieve level 4s is more likely to go on to gain qualifications which will help them to find employment in the future, instead of falling further and further behind. It could be vital in changing their life chances, actually. I honestly think that such comments show an attitude that could limit your expectations of your children, even if you don't mean them too.

No Feenie you just misinterpret everything I write because you obviously dislike my posts and anything positive I say you ignore it. I'm not going to enter into some silly argument with you. The fact is my school is doing very well and oustanding for a reason, but unfortunately some children struggle to achieve due to their background, end of. I actually give up my time and work after school with these children multiple times a week to do the best and I definitely don't have low expecations. I only briefly mentioned the 3B as this is the target for Yr6, comparing it to the statement you made about how many level 3's you have in yr2.

Additionally, although obviously we strive for Level 4, personally I think these children need life skills to survive and being able to write beautiful adjective filled writing, is not going to help them survive in the area we are in. Reading wasn't been referred to earlier it was writing, as for accessing the secondary curriculum, thats great if they can and they've achieved their potential. However, if Mum is still being abused by Dad at home during secondary education its going to mess the child up even more, so I'd rather take the time to help them through that, than force them to write another piece of writing.

Still think it's possible to do both, I'm afraid. Without the forcing.

Worrying poster here. I've been given another inadequate class to sort out as their previous teachers always had a variety of excuses as to why they couldn't be educated. School is about learning, teachers are there to teach, no excuses. Trying to get across to teachers that high expectations are a necessity is becoming the bane of my life.

Feel as worried as you like roundtable. I do have high expectations of my pupils. For these children that happens to be to achieve a good 3, as many of them were only about to achieve a 2 last year and on assessments at the start of the year they were 2c. Therefore need accelerated progress, which we are working towards. These children were all 'w's' in year 2 and therefore 3b is a big increase on our VA score!

Additionally, although obviously we strive for Level 4, personally I think these children need life skills to survive and being able to write beautiful adjective filled writing, is not going to help them survive in the area we are in

I think sending a child out into the world both numerate and literate is something we should all strive for and anything less is failing them.

My apologies to the OP as we seem to have strayed from your question

Speechless...that's me done!

Indeed! Not much you can say to that, is there! (Not you, obviously, mrz).

What's wrong with suggesting children need additional skills to survive in the area we are in? I didn't say 'I don't think they need to get a Level 4' I said 'I strive for it, but also believe they need to be taught life skills that they don't get taught at home' such as problem solving, solution focussing, team work, social skills, learning to cook, money etc. How is this wrong? These sorts of skills are very important and will teach them to live their lives successfully, additional to the literacy and numeracy skills we teach. I was being flippant with regards to the adjective comment, I admit.

Sorry Teacher I am now very confused because all the skills you mention such as problem solving, solution focussing, team work, social skills, learning to cook, money etc. are surely part of every school's curriculum

They are of course part of every schools curriculum but we feel that we need to spend much more time on these fundamental skills and therefore in some cases the literacy/numeracy takes a back seat.

I'm now SPEECHLESS!

Why? They are perfect for using to teach Literacy/Numeracy skills, surely. You can do both.

< can't believe what she's reading

My son was in group 4 out of 5 year one, but now is now on the highest ablity table for every subject in year four.

It helps that he no longer has glue ear and can now control a pencil. He has also matured and grown in confidence.

Differentiation in the classroom is about meeting a child's need at the time. I hate it when mumnetters or anyone in real life brags that their child is on the "top" table. It suggest that children who are not quite at the same point in their learning are "bottom" children or somehow inferior beings.

I think there is an affect where children who are labelled perform to their label.

What I am pushy about is manners. I want my children to be healthy and happy. If they are happy at school then they will perform to the best of their ablities. They know they are loved irrespective of whether they get a level 3 in their key stage one SATs. My children are their own people, not a trophy. I have my own personal achievements, I do not need my children to live my dreams.