Does a child that starts ahead generally stay ahead?

[NorhamGardens]

Looking at some of the other recent threads has got me thinking.

Looking at my brood the ones that started reception or Y1 in the top group etc tended to stay there going forward.

It's rare in our school for someone to move dramatically 'up' in the scheme of things. Sure a few do but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Increasingly I think that if a child is perceived as being more capable than average early on this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy going forward.

I'd say mine are all broadly similar in intelligence but some have been 'believed' in very early on which has given their confidence and subsequent progress an enormous boost.

But surely lots of information is only useful to teachers as professionals and in the context of their lesson planning. I mean, as a parent all I need to know is that DS is peforming well and is given extension work; I don't need to know that his standardised score for the latest maths test was 135+ rather than 130, for example. Why would I need to know whether he was on the G&T register if his needs were being met?

The Gifted & talented programme was scrapped in Feb? so you wouldn't need to know but we are supposed to be working with parents. I'm just very uncomfortable to think there are three LAs in England who have told staff to withholding information whatever the nature or usefulness of that information is.

Bruffin, I had to read your post again as your DS results were exactly the same as my DD's. Spookily so [hgrin]. Think she got a 2c in key stage 1 for English, 4 for key stage 2 and a A at GCSE. She shined in Maths and Science. She was never on a top table in primary. The teacher told me she would stuggle to do the key stage 1 tests, she aced the maths and got an award even though she was on the below average table!

DD only caught up with her reading age at 8.3, when she went into yr 4. Put on G&T list in secondary. She is now studying for A levels.

Can remember her teacher in yr 4 telling me she will never be a high flyer. I told him he was talking rot but thought he was a teacher so must know what he is talking about. [hangry]

They can suddenly come on at any age. I overheard a teacher in yr 5 tell one of her friends parents that she was below average. She is doing really well now too.

But why would the information be useful? Of course schools should be working with parents, but it's not particularly useful to me to know that DS is on the G&T register for maths. It is useful for me to know that the school know he is very able and are providing appropriate challenge and extension.

Mrz I think you're being short sighted. Do you tell parents every single bit of information about their child? We keep all sorts of records on children and unless parents ask I wouldn't tell them. We don't tell parents information regarding child protection records due to la policy to, do you think they should know this?

Gnt programme may have been scrapped however our authority recommends that we now keep 'more able' list - which again won't be shared with parents.

As the designated Child Protection officer I would always tell parents about information on Child Protection documents unless doing so would put the child or staff in danger as that is the law Teacher

There is a presumption that parents will always be informed when their child is subject to a Child Protection Plan, unless to do so would place the child or another child at risk of Significant Harm or an adult at risk of serious injury ? see Information Sharing and Confidentiality Procedure.

Your authority seems to be keeping lots of information away from parents

dd message | Report | Message poster flimflammery Fri 29-Oct-10 16:37:50
"I'm always curious, when people say about children who are academically ahead, 'oh it all levels out by the end of primary' - doesn't that mean that the brighter child has been failed by the system, that if s/he were better taught s/he would still be ahead?"

Not necessarily. I was one of those very early bright children. I was given every conceivable academic support by my fond and doting (and very academic) parents- and I took it and developed in the way anticipated. However, my brother, who had seemed nothing out of the ordinary to start with, had an amazing burst of academic development towards the end of junior and passed me on the road. I wasn't failed because he turned out to be cleverer than me.

Dd was slower than many of her friends in reading and writing (though I knew she was actually quite bright). She shot ahead towards the end of juniors and passed several of her friends. They weren't failed because she had a sudden academic growth spurt.

Some children develop in fits and starts. They don't all level out, obviously- not all adults are as clever as one another- but they don't necessarily follow a neat curve either.

Some children who were very clever at infants school do not have the extra brainpower to do well at secondary, some who got all As at GCSE or Alevels can't hack it an university, because they haven't got that extra bit. Others suddenly find they blossom as the nature of work changes.

Why can't parents be told if their child is deemed 'more able' and on this 'list'?

I've spoken at length before on here about my views on ability etc before. I fear a system that means those that start ahead tend to stay ahead, this has unfortunately been the case IME. It's good to hear otherwise.

I would have a brief conversation along the lines - your child is doing very well in *** so we will be offering extra support ... you can help by ....

just as if a child was having difficulties - your child is struggling with so we will be offering extra support ... you can help by ....

I think that you would know if your DC was gifted or talented, lists are pretty meaningless.

I personally think the whole G&T thing is unnecessary but if a school has lists then they can't refuse to disclose that information. I just find it really alarming that Local Authorities would have a policy saying "Shhhhhhh don't tell the parents!"

I have never heard of a situation where the parents don't know! It all seems a bit pointless-I thought it was so that they could have their special needs catered for-e.g. those G&T in Literacy get to go to special workshops. (I must say I always think gin and tonic!)

I disagree, my most successful (best work/family balance and happiest people) were not the best at school.

And DS1 has shot up from near the bottom to the top half of his class.

It isn't shhh don't tell parents at all an you are making it sound like a big cover up, which it isn't. The fact is that parents are told what they need to know about their children but we don't tell them everything as it won't benefit their child. The fact is that in the catchement I'm in where a gifted child is actually not gifted but on the list to make up the 10%, it doesn't make sense to tell parents as it just causes problems when they don't get great results. You need to look at the larger picture. I'm very pleased that the gnt thing has been scrapped.

As for child protection, we are advised to only inform parents once we've spoken to the la people first, due to the fact that 9 times out of 10, it is often issues with the parents that we are talking about.

All seems silly when you could go from being G&T in one school to below average in another!

DS2 would definitely be G&T at another school, he got all 3s in his SATs...but he's in a really bright class.

Teacher have you had any Child Protection training? because what you are saying is illegal
There is a presumption that parents will always be informed when their child is subject to a Child Protection Plan, unless to do so would place the child or another child at risk of Significant Harm or an adult at risk of serious injury

Wow, I can't imagine our LEA telling us not to tell parents anything - or listening to them if they did, tbh! Very draconian.

"it doesn't make sense to tell parents as it just causes problems when they don't get great results"

That's a strange comment, Teacher - why wouldn't a more able child get great results? Shouldn't questions be asked if they don't?

Not a massive fan of G and T anyway, since I believe all children should be taught to progress as far as they can, not just the 10% on a daft list. But the information that a child is academically very, very able would certainly be shared with parents, and would legally be reported anyway at the end of key stage 1, when teacher assessments are top level 3/level 4 - so not sure why parents and teachers wouldn't be concerned if they weren't on track to get great results in Y6?

Exactly a child protection plan, but this is not always required. Children are often flagged up as a concern at different times and actually if you read what I said, I'm actually following the guidelines, as I said if parents are generally being reported on then we don't inform them, as your copy and paste states, this could cause a danger to the child.

Feenie is you read my post, I said these children were put on even though they aren't gnt, to make up the numbers as in a very low attaining area and Therefore although ahead of their peers, these children weren't actually nationally achieving what they should.

Feenie is you read my post, I said these children were put on even though they aren't gnt, to make up the numbers as in a very low attaining area and Therefore although ahead of their peers, these children weren't actually nationally achieving what they should.

Teacher have you had any Child Protection training?

If a child was a concern it would trigger a CAF and parents would be involved right from the start. If you thought the child was in danger of significant harm (and very few CP cases fall into this category) the parents are going to find out pretty quickly when the SS & police arrive.

Jeez, how low attaining? I work in a deprived area, but there are always quite a few level 3s at KS1 in even a low attaining cohort.

Yes I have had child protection training and know exactly what a CAF is, having been part of 3 last half term are you aware that caf funding is being removed soon? Actually lots of the cp cases I've been involved in have been related to abuse and it was the social worker/police who approached parents not us, and we'd kept records for quite a while before action could be taken.

Very low attaining, currently in yr6 I have 15 children who are at level 2a and only meet to have 3b at end of year. Hence why gnt was just a paper exercise for us.