yr 1 having to wait to go to the loo

[luciemule]

DS was chatting to me last night and seemed worried about the toilet system in his new yr 1 class.

He said they have a toilet chart where there's a side for girls and one for boys and if you're going to the loo (after asking), you have to put your label on the top, which means nobody can go if you're there (there are 7 toilets for boys and 7 for girls). I said surely this wasn't right and I would ask the teacher today.

So I asked her this morning what the set up was and she said that's correct and that they were allowed to go at all times after asking but not at carpet time (15mins long) every so often throughout the day.

I laughed and said that was ridiculous and how could they expect a 5 yr old child who was still in pull ups at night to sit and wait until either the person on the top of the chart had come back or not at all if on the carpet. There was a message on the whiteboard telling parents that they were teaching the children not to go to the loo at carpet time and to make sure they went before class (like a 5 yr old will remember to do that)

So I said that I didn't agree and that it was counter-productive to my toilet training; saying that we are always telling DS to go when he needs and not to sit there holding it. She said that was the rules. She said if she could they were desperate they could go but not at carpet time (she isn't a mum).

Don't really know what to do now - I know that DS is worried about it and when I said he should just say he really needs to go when he does and he replied "but it's the rule".

I agree that in yr 1, they need more rules and discipline but to be told to sit and wait for 10/15 mins whilst they have carpet time is bonk.
On the ERIC site it says that making a child go to the loo 'just to try' when they don't really need to can cause their bladder not to learn when it's really full and lead to not drinking enough in order not to need to go or incontinence.

Am so pee-ed off with school - they have the most bonk rules and if the parents don't agree with them -tough!

It simply wouldn't be feasible to have all children allowed to go to the toilet whenever they liked all the time for several reasons.

5 minutes before home time - the teacher is responsible for getting all children ou ont ime safely to parents. they can't wait for one child to go to the toilet and return if it makes them all late. In this case I would ask them to wait 2 minutes, take them out to parent and get them to ask parent to supervise a toilet run.

More than one at same time - we do this too. Normally a child only takes 5 min max to go and return, so not long to wait. Several children inthe toilet generally means silliness and can often lead to silly behave in the toilets, waer eveywhere, less for others to sort, etc.

Tidy up time, learning time, etc. - we judge this carefully as many children use it as a get out of jobs and learning. Yes, even in Y1!

5 min before break/lunch - similar to home time, but get them out, pass to lunch time staff and then they can go immediately.

Assembly - it is very distracting so it is emergencies only and strongly discouraged - even in reception at our school. Children are encouraged to go before it starts.

Unless there is a medical need it is very unusual for a child not to be able to wait 5-10 minutes. I have never experienced an accident due to this type of policy in the school I work at.

Home and school are very different and different rules apply.

Most Y1s in my experience are perfectly capable of holding on for a very short period of time at least. How do these children cope with school runs or drives in a car and need to go for example?

Obviusly where there are medical needs all of the above is void and different policies should and generally arein place. That is certainly the case in the school I work at.

Oh for gods sake, my 2.4 year old can wait 10 to 15 mins, whats the big issue?!

Oh deary me. Giving up.

pixie I know quite a few women who call themselves 'check out chick' so I'm not being demeaning.

For goodness sake - MN is at best, a really good website; giving positive support to others but at worst, catty and bitchy and full of rude people. even if my replies to others are disagreeing with what they've said, I am able to say so in a way which is still empathetic to their situation.

An example of a more supportive reply would be that of paisleyleaf

"Did you know that legally, teaching staff and TA's have to be provided with clean toilets but there is actually no law saying the same for children?"

Surely children are subject to the same H&S laws as everyone else. Plus the school environment, inc toilets, is covered by inpectingbodies such as OFSTED in schools.

IME of school sall toilets start the day reasonably clean. Yes, some are old and paint flaking and old marks/stains around the place. but that is th nature of many school buildings full stop, esp old ones. But they are cleaned every day by cleaning staff. If accidents occur during the day these are cleaned up as they are identified and passed on to caretakers, etc. this may not always be immediate but generally pretty quick once the staff in charge of it has time to leave what they are doing and get there. But then IME this applies to all areas of the school inc staff toilets.

Also ImE - staff toilets ae often in a worse state of decor and "newness2 than childrens as they are lower ont he list of priorities.

lucie, this is not an issue that requires any support just an ability to see that a school will not treat your DC as you do.

School is not home.

I too have seen many supportive threads and many, many people being incredibly kind on here. A few threads have moved me to tears.

People are being kind...they are trying to help you understand why schools have rules about going to the loo or waiting time.

We are all entitled to our opinion but disagreeing with an OP is not nastiness it`s just the way things are.

Ask yourself why people are not all responding to your thread in a supportive way?

luciemule, basically it boils down to one thing, any yr 1 child should be able to wait 10 or 15 minutes. If they can't it means they are not taking note of the need early enough and need to learn to do that. Learning to wait for the loo for a short period of time is a perfectly normal thing to do and 5yo is not a baby or toddler learning to potty train.

Night time issues are seperate and having had a child with nighttime problems (serious ones) I do have some ecperience in this area. Point one holding a little longer each time is fairly standard practice as is drinking more and Point two if your 5yo cannot wait 10/15 minutes then you probably have bigger issues than nightime and should mention it to your school nurse/gp.

As for all the harping on about 21st century and loo use, get real. The year makes no difference to the fact that it is disruptive to have children in and out and teachers in and out chasing them up when they take too long etc. Yr 1 is the perfect age to learn to use the toilet at appropriate times.

I would describe myself as a pretty firm teacher (usually KS2) who expects children to use the toilet at playtime and lunchtimes. If a child needs the loo during lesson time I will always ask if they could wait until I've finished explaining/carpet time unless that child has a medical need for immediate access to the loo.

If your DS finds it stressful to potentially have to wait a few minutes to use the loo then perhaps you could try a different strategy; ask the teacher to ask your DS if he needs the loo a couple of minutes before she starts carpet time. That way he is being helped to think ahead but also being reminded that he shouldn't leave it to the last minute.

Sorry but I agree with the original poster. When I was in yr1 myself, many years ago, I had a teacher who was very strict about toilet time. We were made to wait. I still have memories of being sat on the carpet, scared to ask and having accidents because I didn't want to interrupt. I'd never had any accidents before then.

Hi, luciemule,

You do sound a little bit tense about toilet training. If you think your ds might actually wet himself as a result of this policy, then admit it to the school/school nurse and they will understand that he has a problem holding on during the day/getting to the loo in time (eg irritable bladder), and not just at night. They will then be in a position to work with you to help him. If you don't think it at all likely that he would actually wet himself (fully or partially), then I honestly don't think waiting a short while very occasionally should be a problem (it's not as if needing the loo will always coincide with carpet time, and if it does, he will quickly learn to do something about it). It might also be worth asking yourself, if you are worried he might actually wet himself despite no recent history of daytime wetting, whether you are passing this anxiety on to him and making the situation worse than it would otherwise have been (ie making him believe that unlike the other children in his class, he cannot control his own bladder when he has to, even during the day). I don't mean to be unkind when I ask this - I am the mother of a ds who has issues with his bladder control and am aware how incredibly easy it is to pass parental anxiety on to the child.

In summary, I don't think the teacher's policy of letting the children go to the loo at any point whatsoever in their school day apart from carpet time is unreasonable and should not cause undue anxiety in a normal 5-year old, unless they have a pre-existing anxiety about their bladder, which is either justified (and so the teacher should be made aware), or unjustified (and so the other causes of the child's anxiety should also be removed for the time being - eg home attempts at toilet training that are directed solely at stopping bedwetting at an age where this is still pretty normal).

ps and I post this even though my ds's biggest problem was asking to go to the loo - but he was scared ALL the time, despite knowing that he would always be allowed to go if he asked. He just couldn't bring himself to ask. But that was a severe problem with anxiety and the school were lovely about it, because they understood that he had a genuine phobia of asking to go to the toilet. They ended up having to gently ask him if he needed to go from time to time, as he was OK about saying yes or no if approached by a teacher, but not OK about going up to someone himself.

How on earth do you manage to get to school if your son can't wait for 10-15 minutes?

My daughter has told me today that her year one class have been asked only to go to the loo at play/lunch times. Seemed perfectly reasonable to me. I know that she woudl be fine with this (as my four year old would be) and also that if she was absolutley deperate that she woudl be allowed to go. It never crossed my mind that is was some infringment of her rights. And it will serve her well if she is stck in a meeting as interminable and but coffee fueled as my three hour one yesterday.

Would.
Would.
Would.

Best suggestion is that your DS makes a habit to go to the toilet automatically before carpet time. he will then build a routine and manage himself better

It is extremely disruptive when kids go through carpet time, one goes, they all want to go and the teachers have a lot to get through in a short time

It's not that we're not supportive but I really can't see the issue. And I can't believe that you just let your son pee anywhere whenever he likes. Do you never go to shopping or somewhere that is any distance from a toilet?

Even at the park with DS I don't just let him pee behind a tree when there are toilets a 5 minute walk away.

It's not a boy/girl thing (although it easier for a boy to go for a wee outdoors) but a matter of making them understand that they should go to a toilet if there is one and if there isn't wait until you get to one (unless you really are in the middle of nowhere), or wait until allowed to go.

I still don't think 10 minutes is long to wait and your DS should learn to go at appropriate times.

I had given up and decided not to post however just to say that it's not the issue of my ds having a bladder problem (he doesn't) but about the point of them being to go, shoudl they ask.

It's surely a basic right to be allowed to go to the loo when they need. Why is mostly only me seeign what my main point is?

Choufleur - we live next to the play park, so could nip home, school is a 5 minute walk and if we're somewhere without a loo (eg. in the woods)he would wee behind a tree (as most people would surely).

Say if I was walking to school and he said I need to the loo, I would say, we'll be at school in a minute- you can go then. So in that case, yes, he would wait because there's no loo. However, when there are 7 toilets just sat there waiting to be used, there is no reason why, if he asks, he shouldn't be allowed.

Others have ointed out all the reasons luciemule, valid reasons why it is reasonable to ask a child of that age to wait 10-15 mins.

You obviously don't agree and I can only deduce that you think school is somehwere where children can have the same freedoms as at home, regardless of the effect on their and others eduacation.

I work with children in the theatre of that age and younger. If they don't learn to plan about going to the toilet in advance then they miss their cue, the show isn't going to wait for them.

lucie, I think a lot of people have explained all the very good reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to go whenever they want - disrupts lessons, opportunity for messing about etc.

I agree with rabbitstew. You seem to be quite anxious about it all and may be passing on your anxiety (mention of the night time pull ups also speaks volumes). I speak as someone who had a lot of anxiety as a child about the loo, and was very like rabbitstew's DS in that I hated to ask but would constantly obsess about whether I would need or not, making me need (inevitably). It was awful, and it still happens to me if I'm going somewhere where I don't know if there will be a loo.

If your DS is ok about waiting, I'd thoroughly encourage him to stay relaxed about it, and back up the policy of the school (i.e. that waiting isn't a big deal). It will stand him in good stead.

The trouble with schools is they always teach the wrong lessons