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Primary education

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Original poster

"collective worship" ???

103 replies

mummynoseynora · 25/08/2010 22:04

I am starting to look at the local school prospectus (dd will be starting next year)

this is a 'normal' non religious run school - ie not CofE / catholic etc - and yet in the prospectus it talks about 'collective worship' I have read up a bit and this appears to be law - where references to the bible are used and prayer etc.... I believe I can withdraw DD from it but I wouldn't want to single her out

I just find it rather odd that a non religious based school legally has to do this ? If I wanted religion taught to her as fact I would have sent her to a religious school..... I am confused!

I have no problem with the RE provision as I want her to be aware of religion and other cultures etc, but myself and DH are atheist, that aside given the large number of religions prevalent in this country nowadays surely many people withdraw / are confused by this?

Does anyone have any examples of this part of assembly? maybe it was just worded badly?

OP posts:
mrz · 31/08/2010 20:58

I had a 4 year old last year who happily told everyone there was no such thing as god ... as I say parents have far greater influence than anything that happens in school

Lots of 4 year olds think we celebrate Christmas because it is Santa's birthday even after appearing in a nativity ...

and I clearly recall trying not to laugh at one of my class who loudly declared "Thank You Heavenly Farmer"

IndigoBell · 31/08/2010 22:29

And don't forget the 'big bang fairy' who made the world :)

LindyHemming · 01/09/2010 10:38

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

civil · 01/09/2010 10:53

'Collective worship' is a legal requirement in all schools.

I don't think many parents are aware of this requirement.

It's because we are a country with an established church.

mrz · 01/09/2010 10:57

I think the label "collective worship" may surprise some people but if it were worded "daily school assembly" would people still be surprised?

OneMoreCupofCoffee · 01/09/2010 11:21

I was surprised when my children were being invited to put their hands together and pray - I didn't expect that from a daily school assembly!

domesticsluttery · 01/09/2010 11:27

I am amazed at the number of parents who are/were shocked at the idea of collective worship! As others have said, did you not have assemblies when you were in school?

My DC's primary school have assemblies most morning, which include prayers. Roughly once a week either the parish vicar or the minister from the chapel comes in to do the assembly (they are both very good, the vicar used to be a teacher and the minister is just a natural story teller). The children also say grace before dinner and recite a prayer before coming home.

OneMoreCupofCoffee · 01/09/2010 11:31

We had assemblies for a short while - maybe a few months one year, they certainly were not a regular part of school life either in primary or secondary.

domesticsluttery · 01/09/2010 11:34

30 years ago we had the exact same structure at primary. Assembly first thing with prayers. Grace before lunch, prayer before going home. At secondary there was an assembly with prayers every morning. Neither my DC nor I attend(ed) faith schools.

mrz · 01/09/2010 11:50

The requirement for an act of daily collective worship has been around since the 1944 Education Act

"The legal requirement in the 1944 Education Act

The settlement negotiated between R. A. Butler, the Minister of Education, and William Temple, the Archbishop of Canterbury, included for the first time the legal requirement that religious education be offered in all schools, not just Church schools.

There were two parts to religious education: a daily act of collective worship and classroom religious instruction. R. A. Butler and William Temple recognised that this new legal requirement was controversial with some teachers but regarded it as an entitlement for pupils.

Collective worship was implicitly expected to be Christian but non-denominational. It had to take place at the start of the day at an assembly of the whole school."

PixieOnaLeaf · 01/09/2010 18:49

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stellamylove · 01/09/2010 20:47

Pixie; that's like saying everyone should get a mental illness in order to be able to function in a world containing mental illness. Learn about faithS by all means but teaching one true faith is going to only foster intolerance

PixieOnaLeaf · 01/09/2010 21:25

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Bodenbabe · 02/09/2010 08:21

Pixie but that's exactly what non-faith schools do! Larning about faith is on the national curriculum. You will get a far more balanced view of faith from a non-faith school because they don't present any one faith as the real one.

mrz · 02/09/2010 08:24

stellamylove you seem to be under the false belief that schools are going to teach children there is one true faith this is completely untrue. Children will be taught in a very general way about a number of faiths (usually 6 main faiths) and will be allowed to form their own opinions and conclusions. There is no indoctrination into any faith...
You have chosen a faith school for your child for your convenience so you must expect that faith will be more evident in your child's school and you have the right to withdraw your child from that aspect if you wish.

Spingsummer · 02/09/2010 11:08

But why 4-5 year-olds would need to learn faiths?

mrz · 02/09/2010 11:58

Why would they need to learn geography, history, physics, chemistry, biology, ... ?

stellamylove · 02/09/2010 12:39

Faith means believing without evidence or reason and it's got the world into all kinds of scrapes. Faith in the furher, allah, jesus, the communist party. It led to the crusades, the 9/11 bombings. It's the very last thing we should be encouraging in small children. They should be taught about the phenomenon of faith and theories on why it happens. I dont think teaching about the major 6 faiths is a bad thing but suspect it's done in a fairly unchallenging way

mrz · 02/09/2010 12:42

stellamylove how challenging do you want it to be for 4 year olds?

PixieOnaLeaf · 02/09/2010 17:48

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domesticsluttery · 02/09/2010 18:29

"Faith means believing without evidence or reason and it's got the world into all kinds of scrapes. Faith in the furher, allah, jesus, the communist party. It led to the crusades, the 9/11 bombings. It's the very last thing we should be encouraging in small children"

I think we are fairly safe to assume that teaching the odd bible story to 4yr olds is unlikely to lead to them invading Poland or go off to fight the Turks...

PixieOnaLeaf · 02/09/2010 18:33

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Bodenbabe · 04/09/2010 07:38

"Bodenbabe - That's not what I'm saying either. What I'm saying is that children need to learn what it's like to live in a society which has faith."

And I'm saying that they can get this in a non-faith school. Although I don't actually agree that children need this experience at all.

"I have faith and I have both evidence and reason to back up my decision."

You don't have evidence in a scientific sense of the word though, and that's what people mean when they say evidence.

Spingsummer · 04/09/2010 09:48

Mrz "Why would they need to learn geography, history, physics, chemistry, biology, ... ?"

Because the above is proved and god is not. That is uncertainty. The other day I watched a programme about poor people in Zimbabwe who do not know what to eat because there is just nothing to eat. A few boys managed to trap 2 or 3 birds. They baked them and shared with the other members of the family. The birds were tiny. My DS (not even 5) was watching it and was asking lots of questions. He even asked why cannot they order food on line if there is nothing in the house :( Just look at my family and that poor family. Although we are not rich but we have food, clothes, toys etc. That family has barely a drop of water. Should I be thankful to god for what I have? And how about that family and many other families dying of hunger as an example? I sometimes find funny or may by not even funny that people thank god for giving them a nice house, a car... So, there are disadvantaged families in the world but yet the god's priority was to help those who are in less need.

You do not need to have a religious faith to be a decent person. Just do not go against the law (far more than 10 commandments) and the life would be great.

However, my DS will attend the collective worship just not to make the head teacher and other worshippers against him.