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Primary education

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Original poster

"collective worship" ???

103 replies

mummynoseynora · 25/08/2010 22:04

I am starting to look at the local school prospectus (dd will be starting next year)

this is a 'normal' non religious run school - ie not CofE / catholic etc - and yet in the prospectus it talks about 'collective worship' I have read up a bit and this appears to be law - where references to the bible are used and prayer etc.... I believe I can withdraw DD from it but I wouldn't want to single her out

I just find it rather odd that a non religious based school legally has to do this ? If I wanted religion taught to her as fact I would have sent her to a religious school..... I am confused!

I have no problem with the RE provision as I want her to be aware of religion and other cultures etc, but myself and DH are atheist, that aside given the large number of religions prevalent in this country nowadays surely many people withdraw / are confused by this?

Does anyone have any examples of this part of assembly? maybe it was just worded badly?

OP posts:
VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 14:51

No Eddie, just DDs school. As it is a faith school, they insist on it.

Sorry that sentence wasnt well put together.

EddieIzzardismyhero · 26/08/2010 15:09

Thanks for the clarification! Grin

Would have fired off a very strongly worded letter to my MP, but he's as much use as a a chocolate teapot so would have had to sit and seethe instead Blush.

Galena · 26/08/2010 15:18

'It's not the law to be Christian, so why is it the law that children have to participate in "worshipping" something?'
It's not the law - they can be withdrawn.

LostArt · 26/08/2010 15:45

It never occurred to me before DD started school that there would be collective worship in school. I attended a CofE Primary school, where, of course, praying was an everyday event. I went on to attend a non religious senior school were we never prayed. We had a 'humanities' lesson, but for the life of me, I cannot remember what they involved or how regular they were. I just assumed if CofE wasn't in the title, it wouldn't be an issue.

I just asked my DD(6) if she prayed in assemblies, but she just laughed, said 'do you mean like Christians?'. So I assume it's like other posters have said - 'collective worship' can be interpreted in many ways.

I would not be happy with my DD praying at school, but, at the same time, know that she would be mortified if I asked for her to be singled out by withdrawing her from it.

Habbibu · 26/08/2010 15:52

Well, yes, but why is it legally enforced that there be worship? I don't understand - if parents want their children to worship, they have opportunities outside school. Withdrawing does single children out. I don't see how worship and education go together.

Bodenbabe · 26/08/2010 16:32

mummytime, your 'religious indoctrination' comment was ridiculous! Eddie was not imposing his/her own views at all, it was the vicar who was doing that!! Eddie was being the voice of reason by explaining that some people believe certain things and some believe others - s/he didn't mention his/her own personal view at all.

prettybird · 26/08/2010 16:46

For those of you that can't/don't understand why there has to be an "act of collective worship, broadly Christian in nature" - and dob't want one , then you need to become "disestablishmentarianists" Grin

The "problem" is that at the moment the "State"/ Establishment and the Church are inextrciably linked: ie the Queen, as head of State, is also the head of the Church of England.

Never qhite worked out how this applies in Scotland: although here at least it is clear: there are "non-denominational" schools (which still have to have a "daily collective act of worship" and there are (100% state funded) schools to which you also have a right to go to. In practice, these are the Catholic schools, although there is a state Jewish school and a state Church of Scotland school. The other difference in practice is that the Parent Councils of the "religious" school have to have an religious official (eg the local priest) on the council.

Bodenbabe · 26/08/2010 19:17

Me: "s/he didn't mention his/her own personal view at all."

to the children, I meant...

VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 19:32

We had a teacher who went to work in a muslim country for a year. She had to hide a sandwich in the back of the store cupboard for her lunch because she was forced to fast leading up to Ramadan.

I dont know if it was the school or the country's law but it makes our collective worship sound tame.

I personally think Christian values are good values

VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 19:39

Bloody thing posted too soon, I was saying

I personally think Christian values are good values... to bring children up by, hence why I chose a faith school. However I do tell them that a lot of things in the bible may not be true or may be exaggerated.

I also think that collective worship can be given without the mention of Christianity or other religions.

Stories like the good samaritan could easily be updated to give the same message.

Original poster
mummynoseynora · 26/08/2010 19:46

I completely agree about the values and I quite like the idea of tales about morality etc to get kids thinking about their actions having consequences on life etc.... I even like them being allowed time for private reflection / prayer / whatever / picking their nose Grin

the bit I don't like the sound of is that from what I have read... if the school wants to it can include a verbalised prayer - and I don't think that should be allowed to be forced on people!

If DD decides after starting school and RE that she believes in God/ Budda / Ganesh / the grim reaper then that is up to her and we will support her, but until that day we don't want her being told what to believe by anyone

OP posts:
VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 20:01

I dont think that it bothers the majority of people. Something like 90% of the country claimed to be Christian on the last census, although something like only 10% go to church.

But I do think in this day and age that non faith schools do not need to pray, sing hymms etc. Surely something like colective citizenship with a moment of reflection would be much better. Our school does something called SEAL which is a bit like this.

mrz · 26/08/2010 20:06

SEAL is Social & Emotional Aspects of Literacy

mrz · 26/08/2010 20:07

sorry posted too early it's the third strand of the National Strategy after Literacy & Numeracy

VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 20:20

I think we are doing something a bit different MRZ

SEAL (Social and Emotional Aspects of Learning,) plays a big part in our everyday curriculum. Children are encouraged to think about the way they behave and the way they react towards others in our school community and their own life. It cover many topics and pupils have the opportunity to reflect and work through many issues at their own level. The teachers and pupils enjoy designing displays which reflect this aspect of our curriculum.

Thats what it quotes on our website Smile

mrz · 26/08/2010 20:35

VoldemortsNipple it's a national programme that most schools follow (I used to be SEAL coordinator when it was introduced in 2005 ... could still be for that matter) there are seven themes that are introduced with a school assembly
New Beginnings
Getting on and falling out
Say No to Bullying
Going for Goals
Good to be Me
Relationships
Changes

mrz · 26/08/2010 20:39

sorry noticed I typed Literacy it should be Learning (I must type on one forum at a time Blush )

VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 20:40

They sound familiar to the themes we follow. I dont know why we say learning rather than literacy.

Either way, its been very successful. Smile

EddieIzzardismyhero · 26/08/2010 20:41

Thanks Bodenbabe - I'm a 'she' btw! Grin

VN, I don't need Christian values to bring my DC up though, I have my own (probably broadly similar but without all the intolerance Smile).

VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 20:41

Ahhh Smile

mrz · 26/08/2010 20:43

I have to say I find it very, very boring

VoldemortsNipple · 26/08/2010 20:48

Thats what Im saying Eddie..

its easy enough for a school to say be kind to each other, rather than be kind to each other because Jesus tells us we should.

I personally dont mind the Jesus bit but I can understand that it is not necessary for schools to teach that way and in this day and age it should be stopped, unless a parent chooses a faith school.

I also think it is unfair in rural schools where the only school in the village is part of a church. I think in those circumstances, christian activities should be extra curricular.

pointythings · 26/08/2010 20:49

Is it me, or do the phrases 'compulsory' and 'worship' go very badly together?
I'd far rather that these collective assemblies had a wide-ranging content, including Christian teachings as well as those of other religions and secular ethical themes. It strikes me as creepy that in the twenty-first century we still have this requirement for 'a compulsory act of broadly Christian worship' on the statute books - this should really be left to faith schools only.

Having said all that, my daughters go to a faith school - I chose it because of the welcoming atmosphere, not the OFSTED or the faith and after 5 years I'm completely happy with the school. And after 5 years of really quite Christian assemblies, my older daughter has just announced that she is a humanist and does not believe in God - they do find their own way if they want to. And if my other daughter decides she wants to be a Hindu that's fine too...

mrz · 26/08/2010 20:52

it isn't compulsory worship
it's collective worship with the option not to join in

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