"collective worship" ???

[mummynoseynora]

I am starting to look at the local school prospectus (dd will be starting next year)

this is a 'normal' non religious run school - ie not CofE / catholic etc - and yet in the prospectus it talks about 'collective worship' I have read up a bit and this appears to be law - where references to the bible are used and prayer etc.... I believe I can withdraw DD from it but I wouldn't want to single her out

I just find it rather odd that a non religious based school legally has to do this ? If I wanted religion taught to her as fact I would have sent her to a religious school..... I am confused!

I have no problem with the RE provision as I want her to be aware of religion and other cultures etc, but myself and DH are atheist, that aside given the large number of religions prevalent in this country nowadays surely many people withdraw / are confused by this?

Does anyone have any examples of this part of assembly? maybe it was just worded badly?

The law says "Section 70 of the 1998 Act states that, subject to the parental right of excusal or other special arrangements, "?each pupil in attendance at a community, foundation or voluntary school shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship." ... and that the majority of acts of collective worship in any given school term should be "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character"

So VN, while I agree that "in this day and age that non faith schools do not need to pray, sing hymms etc" - unfortunately this is not backed up by the law. And unfortunately, I don't see any of the political parties being prepared to change things because of the potential for a Christian backlash (from all those people who don't actually go to church )

prettybird in the secular school where I teacher probably less than 2% of parents attend church other than as guests at weddings or funerals yet when we proposed singing Christmas songs rather than carols we had a huge outcry so yes all the non church attenders would complain

mrz,

It's compulsory because the schools have to do it and it has to be broadly Christian. The compulsion is on the school, not the child. In the twenty-first century this, in my opinion, is simply wrong. Non-faith schools should have the right to do whatever they want to for their assemblies, and the aim should be to foster tolerance and appreciation of those who are different from us.

Besides. where is the value in an act of worship which does not come from the heart but is compelled by law?

The issue of carols is a straw man - everyone loves carols, including me, and I'm an atheist. It's what we do on the other 365 days a year that is the issue.

Not joining in really isn't an option, it's singling your child out for bullying - really not that attractive.

I attended a British primary school in the late 70s and I remember assemblies being about all kinds of things - there was a session about fire safety in a particularlyu dry summer, there was a session about racism, there was a session about the issue of beauty being only skin deep. There was no overt Christian content, but these assemblies fostered a spirit of moral values, tolerance and togetherness. That's what we should be working towards in the education system, not 'anything as long as it's labelled Christian' (or any other religions to the exclusion of others).

pointythings, my primary school in the late 70s early 80s had loads of christian worship.

Lords prayer every morning in assembly plus hymms at start and end. Grace before lunch and prayer at hometime.

We even had a big portrait of the Queen on display in the hall.

Anyway going to read all things holy Harry Potter, the only bible a girl needs

Schools have to provide a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature, which can be as little as 51% Christian, and 49% other faiths.

I agree with you mrz - which is why the law is an ass.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a state secular school :( - not one that is acting lawfully at least.

That's right, Lougle - and the Christian ones only have to be 'of broadly Christian character' so many schools simply use the assemblies for moral values, and tolerance as these are Christian values too, and they've covered their backs. We used to have a 'time for personal reflection' and then a short prayer - not naming Jesus - which the children were invited to 'say amen if you want to'.

There we go - You've followed the law, and hopefully not put anyone's backs up.

We also had fire safety, road safety, etc.

pointythings I'm sure you are aware that parents can opt out and so can teachers ...

I went to a CofE primary school in the 80s, and even though it was a church funded school, the assemblies were always more along the lines of collective reflection.

Usually a story of something, with a moral, not always a Christian example, general message being to be nice to each other and be thankful (not specifically to God) for what we have (as in being luckier than lots of other people).

Then 'prayers' which were almost always 'Thank you for the lovely sunny day, thank you for the tasty dinner that cook is preparing' along with 'help us to be kind and helpful' type of stuff, you didn't have to say amen if you didn't want to. There was very rarely an overt reference to God or Dear Lord or anything like that, and this was from a rural CofE primary school with no pupils from non-Christian faiths (in a village where the only non-caucasians were the owners of the Chinese and Indian takeaway).

I suppose on the whole I am not quite comfortable with state-sponsored religion, but I don't think the above example from my childhood is indoctrination.

Maybe if all those who really felt strongly about did withdraw their kids, there would be lots not participating and less likelihood of that being unpleasant for the child.

D

When i was at school there were a number of (catholic) children withdrawn from assembley and RE lessons, or scripture as it was called then.I certainly don't remember them getting teased or bullied.

The current legal position frustrates me greatly, as I have no option for a secular state education.

If anybody feels strongly about this, you might like to consider supporting this campaigning.

Good morals do not belong exclusively to Christians! And good morals are what - about being tame - inoffensive?

Christians - are a mixed bunch just like Muslims - they range in extremes too form the Free Church in Scotland that forbids amoung many other things the washing of clothes & children in playgrounds on a Sunday, to the Jehovah's Witness which forbids blood transfusions and stand against Birthdays, Christmas and Easter and only fairly recently have Catholics been allowed to eat normally during lent.

So the best thing the Church of England has got going for it is that it's tame?

Why, if we are saying that religious indoctrination in schools is ineffective do we persist in the collective act of worshipping an imaginary God? Do we have so little to teach our kids that we spend valuable teaching time encouraging them to worship an imaginary character, when so few of them are impacted by the process or is every soul worth saving despite the majority?

Sorry Op I haven't answered your question. I'm totally fed up with not having a secular choice of schooling for my children, I am fed up with religious people suggesting that it's all ok because Christianity is good and they're all nice to each other (who are they kidding!!!) And I'm fed up with the wishy washy tameness of it all - it's harmless apparently and it makes no impact and so I cry it's also bloody pointless - let's spend valuable school time doing something a little more productive!

If you care about this issue then I urge you to join the British Humanist Association - the churches have had their lobbyists in place for centuries - humanists need to pay for someone to lobby on their behalf.

(Waves at OneMoreCupofCoffee, agree entirely with what you say - must get my donation to the education post organised )

I think most schools regard the "collective" element as important - everyone getting together and sharing news, success, enjoying a story and a song and as Ofsted seems to believe pay lip service to to the "worship" element

@zapostrophe,

Collective singing - great. Carols at Christmas - great. Just not compulsory Christianity week in, week out. If we're looking for a collective musical experience, there's so much more out there that we can draw on, we don't need laws to force it on us.

@isItMeOr and OneMoreCupofCoffee - right on!

It's not even collective Christianity. It is washed out, faded and irrelevant. Most of the time.

I take my child to church for their religious education and am not comfortable with tecahers doing it badly. ;-)

And as for Christians all being good all the time. I kind of think the point is that of course they are not, and that is why they have rules. LOL. The fact that the rules exist outside as it were ust goes to show that we have common ideas about what goes and what does not.

Anyway... back to the point. DS has assemblies and they sing a christian song. That is all. It is no different to them singing twinkle star... it has no more relevance than this, and if a child can be fully informed about ANY religion/humanist choice during their time at school then I'd be really surprised (actually I'd eat something horrid, cos it just isn't going to happen). If anything the washed out version of christianity they get fed should warm the cockles of the Atheist heart... it just makes it seem childish and superficial. which is more likely to make children go "oh yes, christianity is rubbish/silly/etc", particularly as they get older and the substance is still lacking.

Absolutely! Go for your life on the collective singing in assembly - even give it a moral slant if you must, just don't put a Christian slant on it - please note: non-Christians are good people too, I know this might seem incredible but we have values, morals & rules too - we just don't need to use religion as a vehicle to inform our children of these - I doubt schools do either. Ahh sorry I forgot forcing religion on young children at school makes no difference to their religious outlook - someone remind we why we waste their valuable time at school doing something pointless....again?

I have just found out that at my DS's school the collective worship is going to be practiced as well. It is mentioned that pupils and teachers of all the religions are invited. My question is whether they pray during this collective worship or just talk about different religions etc. Personally I think my DS is too young to learn religions. It is like teaching them about the Santa. At this age many if not most of the kids will believe in everything what is said. It is possible to teach kids good and bad without mixing it with religions which are too hypocritic too me.

I'm quite shocked that anyone who has been educated in the state system is surprised that schools have assemblies...

May be we are shocked too to find out that at this time 2010 there are STILL assemblies.

And at my school they are going to have it on a daily basis. Is it not just too much? But try not to attend it and you are singled out and also those who do not go are recorded by the Head Teacher. Why?

All schools are expected to have a daily act of "collective worship" so your school isn't unusual and assemblies if you think back are unlikely to influence children to want to become members of a religion (I would more often the opposite) Parents rightly have a far greater influence on children than school

I am often shocked by the number of people who insist that their children do not have collective worship at their schools. Either there is a lot of schools breaking the law or a lot of parents are not fully aware of the god worshipping which takes place - I wonder why?.

Santa is also good because he brings presents during the Christmas time. So and the tooth fairy putting a coin under the pillow. Lets worship them.

Well, I still think it is too early for the 4-5 years old. Why not teach just the ethics?
But I cannot change anything. Can I? So I see how it goes after the 2nd September. I hope I will not be the one who opts out her child.