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Preschool education

Get advice from other Mumsnetters to find the best nursery for your child on our Preschool forum.

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Original poster

pre school - must be toilet trained

72 replies

oooggs · 08/03/2010 20:43

Dts who are 3 the end of the month are starting at the pre school attached to the primary school after Easter. (ds1 already in school)

The head teacher has decided with the govenors that children can't start until after their 3rd birthday - have heard a rumour that this is because they will then be dry.

Well we have been for a visit and they have no provision for changing. They have 2 small toilets and a disabled on and are expecting all children to be fully trained.

dd (dt1) still have poo accidents
ds2 (dt2) hasn't even started - no interest

I have spoken to the nursery nurses and they have said that he could just come in pull ups and be as trained as he can be

Surely this is discrimination of sorts - oh I have no idea - what shall I do? - anyone know if this is right?

Thank you

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SugarSkyHigh · 08/03/2010 20:46

you are right, it is absolutely discrimination, and thoroughly bad practice. They should be able to cater for children in nappies. I don't think it's against the law but definitely frowned upon - why not call oFSTED and find out?

HumphreyCobbler · 08/03/2010 20:47

But haven't they said that they can come?

Ds is not trained, is 3.2 and wears pull ups that they change if necessary. He is taken to the toilet like the other children, I think this is good encouragement for him.

They cannot refuse children who are not trained.

littleducks · 08/03/2010 20:50

You are right that they cant refuse an untrained child, due to disability discrimination.....even if the child isnt disabled in any obvious way as it may not become apparent until loater iyswim

However i would suggest you consider the decision carefully, could you try a potty training boot camp week?

There is (apparently) one child in nappies/pull ups at dds preschool and the other children do seem to think its a bit odd, obv i had a word about being kind to dd, but none of the kids seem to accept that this child is as old of them due to the nappies (apparently can be seen occassionally out top of trousers, teachers never let on) nothing is ever said (so very hard to deal with) but in the way that 4/5 yr old girls do it that dont fully include them.

Original poster

oooggs · 08/03/2010 20:51

I have only told the staff on the visit and they said that the headteacher doesn't want untrained children but that they will just turn a blind eye

The pre school was opened today by the Countess of Wessex (it actually physically opened in September) so they haven't had an ofsted yet - due this summer when the school is done

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mnistooaddictive · 08/03/2010 20:51

There may be a good reason why they have to be 3. The staff to child ratio changes at 3 fom 4 to 1 to 8 to 1 i.e. twice as many children for each member of staff. This could be the reason.

MadamDeathstare · 08/03/2010 20:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

littleducks · 08/03/2010 20:53

And if you do decide to send them, perhaps arranging clothes so there nappy isnt seen frequently by other children?

I think that would help alot, no child wants to stand out. Vests/long tops or even pants ontop of nappies might work?

Original poster

oooggs · 08/03/2010 20:54

it is only ds2 in daytime nappies, dd is in pants and has been since august (with an odd poo accident) and ds2 is still not interested.

Potty training is a nightmare, potty training twins is hell

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Original poster

oooggs · 08/03/2010 20:55

littleducks - they are going, they leave their current nursery (work based one) and starting pre school as I am not returning to work (career break)

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Original poster

oooggs · 08/03/2010 20:58

that ratio point is probably very right [smie]

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littleducks · 08/03/2010 21:10

Are they in full time nursery atm?

Maybe it will all click into place with you at home with them plus preschool.

Your dd should adjust fine, kids tend to develop a habitual time for bowel habits when its quiet and their at home.

The peer pressure may encourage your ds, and pull ups are prob far better than nappies.

Do you take ds to the toilet to try?

littleducks · 08/03/2010 21:12

Sorry thats came out wrong, i mean him trying.....

do you take ds to the toilet to try to pee, with accidents in between or is he totally not having it atm?

Original poster

oooggs · 08/03/2010 21:18

currently in nursery two days a week

he is not interested says 'E wears pants, me nappy'

if you ask him if he has done a poo he says no even though he has

Have bought pants with him and he has done a poo on the potty by accident (passed wind and one popped out )

he is happy to sit on the potty but has never weed on it

they no have their own pottys

I know this is my problem but it is hard at the moment with 3 under 3

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nellie12 · 08/03/2010 21:27

Have you tried getting him to wee in the toilet or down the grid - drowning the spiders as he goes. (although beware, that one can come back to bite you on the arse!)

Boys, I think, can be inclined to think why bother wasting playing time when I have a nappy on. with mine i just put him in pants and persevered. Eventually we got there.

I did spend a month chasing after him though. but like yours he had to be dry for pre-school.

Original poster

oooggs · 08/03/2010 21:30

well I think I will start with the pull ups and getting him to try then go full hog the 2nd week of the Easter holidays

We are away the 1st week and can do without him weeing over someone elses static caravan!

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misshardbroom · 09/03/2010 08:45

doesn't matter whether they've been inspected yet or not, to have opened they need to be registered with Ofsted, so you still have the same recourse to Ofsted with this or any other issue.

Not that I'm advocating complaining to Ofsted about it, given the staff have said he can come in pull-ups, there's nothing really to complain about.

underpaidandoverworked · 10/03/2010 19:50

A pre-school, whether nursery attached to school or a playgroup, can't refuse to take a child because they aren't potty trained. I work in a playgroup and we have a few 2.6/3.2 not trained yet but we encourage them to use the toilet - and many do when they see their playmates using it. We don't have a 'changing station' but have a changing mat that we use in the bathroom area.

Totally agree with the 'ratios' reason - you can't mix and match the ages, so you have to be very careful. Also, it could be down to the free funding for 3 yr olds, which comes into place the term after they turn 3 - before that you would have to pay for it. FWIW, the LEA I work in only has a September intake for all children, regardless of when they turn 3 - it differs across the country

JeremyVile · 10/03/2010 20:04

I had this with ds's preschool (school nursery).

They told us quite clearly that non-trained children could not attend.

This was last summer and ds was due to start in september at 3.6, he was comlpetely uninterseted and we were really upset about it, ahd no ntention of pushing ds before he was ready so it looked like he wouldn't be able to go.

I questioned the head teacher about it and he said that of course ds could attend...so long as he had a developemental delay diagnosed by a Dr.

So it seems thats how they get round the discrimination thing.

I wasn't about to cart ds off to be labelled with something when I couldn't see any problem other than him not fitting in with the schools requirements so fumed a bit and assumed he'd not be going to preschool after all.

As it is he got the hang of it all two weeks before term started and all has been fine.

But sadly I think they are totally covered by the dev delay thing.

Missus84 · 10/03/2010 20:11

Sorry, but why not just train him? I really don't understand this current fashion for leaving children in nappies for so long.

JeremyVile · 10/03/2010 20:18

What dont you understand about it missus84?

It never seemed to make much sense to me watching others train their kids before they were ready and having months of accidents.

Ds had 2 accidents in the first couple of days, then he was dry day and night without a backwards glance.

Oblomov · 10/03/2010 20:23

Have th elaws changed ? I thought they could request that they were trained. but not insist. they are not allowed to insist are they ?
ds trained himself. i think he was 2.5 or so. i had no intention of doing it then. announced he wanted big boy pants. one accident when he was too ingrossed in playing. ONE wee-wee. then sorted.
unlike 84 i am the other end of the spectrum. why not leave kids till they wnat to do it. then you won't have weeks and months of accidents and piss all over the place. seems simple to me !!

Original poster

oooggs · 10/03/2010 20:24

what a fantastic idea missus84 I wish I had thought of that.

Ok slightly off track - how do I make/force/interest a child in the toilet/potty who refuses to go anywhere near it?

He has an older brother of 6 and a twin sister who both use these in and out of the house and peers who use them at nursery.

How do I start?

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pointylog · 10/03/2010 20:31

I trianed mine and didn't have weeks of piss and poo.

Oblomov · 10/03/2010 20:34

not sure its possible oggs. does he like anything in particular ? like spiderman/iggle piggle/whatever. find such pants. then take him to tesco's/m&s or wherever they are and try and interest him, buy these for 'when you're ready' ???
if peers at nursery doesn't make him want to, then surely nothing will ?

Original poster

oooggs · 10/03/2010 20:39

just bought a thomas potty and potman pat pants - I am not forcing the issue - did that with ds1 and it was hell

my op was about whether the pre school could refuse him if he was not trained. I hope he will be by 19th April just wanted advise on what they could do if he wasn't

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