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Preschool education

Get advice from other Mumsnetters to find the best nursery for your child on our Preschool forum.

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Original poster

pre school - must be toilet trained

72 replies

oooggs · 08/03/2010 20:43

Dts who are 3 the end of the month are starting at the pre school attached to the primary school after Easter. (ds1 already in school)

The head teacher has decided with the govenors that children can't start until after their 3rd birthday - have heard a rumour that this is because they will then be dry.

Well we have been for a visit and they have no provision for changing. They have 2 small toilets and a disabled on and are expecting all children to be fully trained.

dd (dt1) still have poo accidents
ds2 (dt2) hasn't even started - no interest

I have spoken to the nursery nurses and they have said that he could just come in pull ups and be as trained as he can be

Surely this is discrimination of sorts - oh I have no idea - what shall I do? - anyone know if this is right?

Thank you

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

moaningminniewhingesagain · 10/03/2010 20:49

I looked into this too as DD in 3 in a couple of weeks and in nappies full times with occasional tries on the potty, usually with no result.

I understand that they can say they 'expect the child to be potty trained' expect being the operative word, they might expect it but they might be disappointed

DD already goes to the preschool for 3 paid mornings a week, will go 5 mornings after Easter. They are encouraging her with toilet training, I send her in a nappy plus spare nappy, 2 x knickers and spare trousers. It's not working at the moment.

But she doesn't know she needs to go til its running down her leg, frankly. I am fairly sure they cannot refuse because not trained but will see if I can find a link.

dilemma456 · 10/03/2010 20:57

Message withdrawn

MeltedFlumps · 10/03/2010 21:03

I had this problem with my son and when he started prescholl we got around it by me sending him in in pull-ups and saying we were starting toilet training. So basically he weed in his pullups as though it was a nappy and the staff could not have cared less, and nobody knew anything was going on.

BUT on a few occasions when he did a poo they called me and I had to go there and change him. It was crystal clear that they did not accept kids in nappies and would therefore not deal with that at all.

Before we started there I checked out the rules and they are perfectly entitled to say they won't take kids in nappies unless it is due to a disability.

My advice would be to say you have started toilet training and use pullups like I did.

(FWIW ds was 3.8 before he actually toilet trained because I knew he did not want to do itbefore then. When it looked like he was ready it took a few days and was very easy. I have never understood why some mums go through months of accidents and stress with kids who are not ready)

Thediaryofanobody · 10/03/2010 21:05

My understanding of it is that whilst they can't refuse your child (they all say the MUST be trained but once you stand up to them and demonstrate you know your rights they back off quickly) they can refuse to change the nappy and will call you instead to come change it or pick up your DC.

Original poster

oooggs · 10/03/2010 21:27

I bought pull ups today and that is the road I am going down

OP posts:

Original poster

oooggs · 10/03/2010 21:29

meltedflumps - I am right with you we live ocal so changing a poo in a pull up would be fine if thats what it takes

OP posts:

ilovesprouts · 10/03/2010 21:32

ds went to pre school and he was still in nappys ,but has sn so they could not refuse ,he now goes to sn school still in nappys but they change him

Shaz10 · 10/03/2010 21:34

I've been a nursery teacher (one attached to a school). Although we will change nappies, sort out accidents etc it does take us away from the classroom where there are 2 staff for 20 children. So we very very very much do appreciate those parents who have toilet trained their children so that we're not taken away from teaching 19 other children in order to change a nappy.

ilovesprouts · 10/03/2010 21:35

oh he has gdd

paisleyleaf · 10/03/2010 21:41

Shaz10 makes a good point about time away from the children. And the staff at the preschool my DD went to really have a lot to cover with observations etc
Isn't preschool supposed to be an educational setting rather than daycare?

It sounds as though the preschool here is happy to compromise with you and take children in pull-ups. I don't see how they can be any fairer than that.

Thediaryofanobody · 10/03/2010 22:21

But that the nurseries problem to deal with if they are understaffed it shouldn't be the parents or child's issue to deal with.
Yes pre school is about education which is why it's even more important a child isn't excluded from it due to toilet training. What is so magic about being 3, does a child's bowel and brain engage on the morning of it's 3rd birthday?

islandofsodor · 10/03/2010 22:32

Some nurseries (the one dd and ds went to attached to their school) are only registered to take children form the age of 3 althouth they are now allowed to take rising 3's.

It was to do with regulations and ratios, not toilet training.

Shaz10 · 11/03/2010 11:48

Well said paisleyleaf. It is school, not daycare.
No-one has to send their child to preschool. What if it was your child missing out on things because the teacher is always in the toilets with the same few?

littleducks · 11/03/2010 16:03

2 staff to 20 kids is a pretty rubbish ratio though surely? That can't be normal????

There are about 26 kids per session at dds preschool and they have 5 members of staff, (with 4 onsite all the time, as they each have an afternoon off) excluding students who they seem to have there alot too.

Shaz10 · 11/03/2010 17:33

It's very normal, I'm afraid!

Missus84 · 11/03/2010 21:58

It'll be 2 staff to 16 children, same as in nurseries I think. Unless the staff are qualified to degree level, then it's 1:13.

coldtits · 11/03/2010 22:11

Just send him in pants, and let them deal with the fall out.

I've had to force Ds2, who still really has no interest in toilet training, because he's nearly 4 and starts school in September. he still wets himself at least once a day, poos himself more frequently than he does it in the toilet, but I don't have a choice. He has to get hold of it.

I'm as clear as clear could be that he has no SNs, and I hold the unfashionable opinion that he simply can't be arsed to sit and push a poo out on the toilet when he could be doing something else instead.

Bare bum instead of pants seems to have a higher hit rate.

BoysAreLikeDogs · 11/03/2010 22:12

okay

I have been digging - this came up last year

p 8 of this document states:

The overarching aim of the EYFS is to help young children achieve blah blah (scroll doen to)

providing for equality of opportunity and anti-discriminatory practice and ensuring that every child is included and not disadvantaged because of ethnicity, culture or religion, home language, family background, learning difficulties or disabilities, gender or ABILITY. (my caps) So a child in nappies is not yet able to toilet themself and therefore should be not excluded ie discriminated against

HTH

ninah · 11/03/2010 22:19

please please do not send them in pants unless they are ready (ie wee accidents, maybe the occasional poo)
my colleague had to change one little boy today three times, twice poo all over, she had to wash out his pants they were so caked - at least in a pull up it's relatively contained and you can bin the lot
let them deal with the fall out ... nice one coldtits
I have no problems with changing children whatsoever but sending them in pants before they are ready is a real pain

coldtits · 11/03/2010 22:34

If you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice.

If I didn't send ds2 to preschool in pants, he wouldn't wear pants at home either. It's the only way to get him into pants - tell him he has to wear them for playschool

if he didn't wear pants until he was ready, he would be going to school, in 5 months time, in nappies.

What mother wants that for their child?

The playschool are welcome to ring me and make him go home, tbh he may then get the message that when the poo happens in the pants, the fun stops.

He's not had a poo accident there yet.

At some point, whoever is taking care of a porry training child will have to deal with the fall out, be that a parent or nursery staff. If you can't hack poo, don't work with 3 year olds and ban nappies.

ninah · 11/03/2010 22:40

there's a difference between being able to hack poo and getting covered in it because parents persist in sending their dc in pants when they are having two to three accidents per session, and I mean sitting in it rolling in it accidents
in this case I think pullups are more appropriate and certainly more hygienic
am talking about rising 3s here, I can see when you have an older child pull ups would be more of an issue
speaking purely as a mum now I guess you've tried bribery?

ninah · 11/03/2010 22:43

Had never heard of calling parents in to change tho, might suggest this! one of the dc in this category had a poo accident just as her father arrived ... she came in pull ups next time
it does make you wonder

coldtits · 11/03/2010 22:43

I've tried actual goddamned CASH Ninah. Money in the child's hand.

Pennies for Poo.

If he's out, somewhere where there might be an interesting toilet, he's happy to use it (briefly)

At home, he really is not bothered.

Although without pants he's much better. He doesn't like the idea of poo on the floor.

His big brother, with Sn's, trained at 3.6 and I thought that was late. THIS is ridiculous.

coldtits · 11/03/2010 22:44

Rising threes, I agree, should be in nappies if they aren't chuffed or aware about pants and poo.

But when they are nearly 4, and being obstinate about not wanting to sit on the toilet for more than 7 seconds, you have to do what you can to make the toilet a better place for the poo to be than the child's bum.

ninah · 11/03/2010 22:47

it's interesting he's better when out, maybe that could be the key, if he sees preschool as 'out' and gets the habit there
sounds like they're working with you on this which is great
chocolate sorted my dd. Meant more to her than money ...
ah well, summer's a good time for it, pantless with potty in the garden etc
I bet he cracks it over the summer

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