pre school - must be toilet trained

[oooggs]

Dts who are 3 the end of the month are starting at the pre school attached to the primary school after Easter. (ds1 already in school)

The head teacher has decided with the govenors that children can't start until after their 3rd birthday - have heard a rumour that this is because they will then be dry.

Well we have been for a visit and they have no provision for changing. They have 2 small toilets and a disabled on and are expecting all children to be fully trained.

dd (dt1) still have poo accidents
ds2 (dt2) hasn't even started - no interest

I have spoken to the nursery nurses and they have said that he could just come in pull ups and be as trained as he can be

Surely this is discrimination of sorts - oh I have no idea - what shall I do? - anyone know if this is right?

Thank you

I hope so, he is slowly getting better.

I've tried a chocolate biscuit for every poo in the toilet - didn't work.

And because he's so old (comparatively), he has a MASSIVE bladder, there is no such thing as a 'little' accident - the child fills his boots.

Yes, I do agree at rising 4, pants, and plenty of back up from preschool staff
I can't believe I'm talking about poo after the amount I've seen this term lol

They are good - but if he poos there, I know they won't call me, they'd just sort it. It's only got 10 children at it's busiest time, sometimes as few as 4.

but like I say, he doesn't poo at preschool, which tells me he does have SOME idea about where poo should and should not be.

Stubborn toad!

lol some of the littlies have deceptively large bladders, you'd be amazed
do your preschool do stickers, or isn't he the kind of child to go for that?

OK so no poo probs at school - they are good and hands on, how about if you suggest you report in to them poos on loo at home for sticker at school? grasping at straws
good luck with it, anyway!

An idea worth approaching! he seems to think of preschool as The Place To Be, so a reward there will be much magnified.

Thanks Ninah.

I have so much to deal with Re ds1, that I tend to battle on with Ds2 without asking for any help - I feel if I get help with the 'easier' boy I might use up my help allowance for when I really need it with the older one.

Which is silly.

Actually, where I am 'preschool' is only for the year before starting reception anyway. So they start september and would be 3 or 4 years old.
Not starting easter at 3.

any good preschool will help willingly, and you shouldn't hesitate to ask! hope it is, er, a goer ...

i am really happy this thread has come up on the day i have just got my DS 2.7 into a pre school
he starts after easter and i suddenly started worrying that although he will go for a wee on the pot if in the bath or nappyless he still is pretty much in naps constantly

they told me that some still nappy but most go to the toilet but not to worry as when he sees the others going he'll want to go to

i'm going to use the next few weeks to try and encorage him but will have to send him in pull ups.

hope you get loads of good advice so i can nick in on it

pull ups work like pants anyway, they still sit on loo like all the others! we still try and help them get it in loo if they show signs of wanting to go ... remind them, etc .. just if something does happen, it's more contained, so for littlies it's a great way to start off
I really must get some sleep now ready for the next round

sorry to Op for elbowing in again but do people think i should get one of those mini toilets for at home rather than a potty?

we do have one of those foam things you put on the loo seat but DS is not impressed.

wouldn't a mini loo of his own help him get an idea of what to expect at pre-school?

has OP thought of this? think i saw some in tesco direct catalogue but as i said until today, potty training was the least of my worries

Hello, this thread caught my eye although I'm sorry I've not had a chance to read all replies. I work as a senior officer in a childrens services dept. It absolutely is discrimination for a preschool or school to refuse admission to children in nappies, and probably illegal. A child in nappies should have suitable provision for training.if anyone is having persistent trouble with this, a letter to the headteacher, copied in to the director of childrens services if your local authority should help to rectify the issue toute suite.
Sorry if that sounds like a shirty course of action, but I am fed up of coming across parents who have been upset over this!
Hope that helps a little.

Children's service department, are you going to give schools the money for an extra NN to do all this changing and provide facilities? We never refused anyone who wasn't trained but we at least appreciated those parents who tried. Just shouting "it's discrimination" is a cop out - there is extra paid for provision, i.e staff, when we had a child with e.g autism or Down's Syndrome, but not when the child has no SEN. We all have responsibilities as well as rights.

I was very surprised that our playgroup/preschool had no problem with kids in nappies at all. Their view was that you couldn't expect EVERY 2/3 year old to be trained, some kids just don't 'get' toilet training till 3.5, you can't 'force' them, and why should they miss out on playgroup just because their bodies are slightly less developed than some of the other children.

They also pointed out that it is illegal to discriminate in this way, not on grounds of disability, but because it is something the child has no control over. Certainly some parents will leave it too long, but sometimes it is the only way, and it is the child that would miss out.

You certainly don't need extra staff to be available to change children. They have their teaching staff, who are the only ones allowed to take children to the toilet/change them, and they have 2 parents each session helping out (you sign up for 2 sessions per term).

I have heard of some playgroups that phone the parent to come and change the child if they soil a nappy, but ours didn't have any problem at all.

In most preschools it's 1 teacher and 1 NN to 20 children, that's the minimum legal ratio for under 5s at schools so you're very lucky if you get more. We're also supposed to do freeflow inside and out, so that's essentially one adult inside and one outside. And then some are expecting us to change nappies as a matter of course? And don't forget the actual teaching we're expected to do too.

I'll reiterate, accidents aren't a problem, they happen in Year 6, never mind nursery! But please at least try to train your children!

this is all very interesting nice to know we are not alone

He is now in pull ups during the day and nappies at night as I have found that oull ups don't work as well over a 12 hr period.

I am encouraging him (not working) but will continue to do so.

Very interested with the EYFS bit - thank you boysarelikedogs

oh and by the way I know that pre school is not daycare.

ds1 wet himself near on daily and on his 1st day of reception I spoke to the TA with my concerns, that was the day it stopped and he has never had an accident in school - he is currently in year 1.

hope those in similar situations get good results soon

as far as I know, toilet training is now classed as another milestone (like walking, talking etc) so yes it is definately discrimination.

I wanted to say something regarding comments made about staff spending time sorting out nappies and the other children missing out. Missing out on what exactly? When I was 3 you didnt go to pre school, children just played at home, there was no need for them to practice chinese writing and make chinese lanterns at chinese new year, we were just children allowed to be children with there being plenty of time aged 4-16 for 'proper education'.

Im not saying the foundation stage curriculum is a waste of time (I did a degree in early years so i can certainly see the benefits) but now im a mother I would hardly expect children to be written off if they dont go to preschool or because they have less of the teachers time due to sorting out wet kids. I dont think theres a link between how much of the teachers time they have and whether or not they are likely to receive an asbo.
But surely it takes longer to clear up wee off the floor and change a wet childs clothes than it does to change a pair of pull ups. thats if the child even says they are wet, if they dont they just go home after their 2 and a half hours and their parent changes it so theyve had nothing to do.

Yes its great to potty train early if the child is ready and able but if not then why should having to grow up and be independant have to take priority over their confidence and self esteem. Why do they have to be left a laughing stock because theyve wet themselves again.

Im hoping my dd will be trained in 3 weeks time ready for nursery (yeah right!) and have to put up with being branded a lazy parent for not training sooner (coz i love paying a fortune for nappies), or worse have people suggest theres something wrong with her.

School uniforms for 3 year olds and homework for 4 year olds - why do they have to grow up so fast?

I've just spent a week trying to toilet train 3.5 yrs DS2. I've given up as he's totally not getting it. The last straw was 20 mins oin the potty (relaxing, DS1 there and we rea da copuple of books) then he stood walked out the door and pissed all over the floor.

He was coming home from pre-school with a big, stinky nappy each day (despite me asking them to check and providing a change mat and packs of wipes, nappy bags etc).

How do I approach the pre-school teachers to say that he MUST have checks and to chnage him? In my mind I think it's outragous that they're a bit iffy about it, but I feel uncomfortable about making a fuss.

From a psychological view point, I would suggest being careful. In my primary school, albeit over 3 decades ago, there was a girl in our reception class age 4 or so who was not toilet trained. She was stigmatised, given a name and taunted and all that carried on in some form or another until she left school at 16. Looking back, certain parts of her life were certainly hell due simply to her not being toilet trained.

I can't remember who posted earlier that their ds was not interested in being toilet trained, unless it was a new, interesting toilet, then he would use it, albeit briefly. To me, this means that the child is capable of being toilet trained. He is choosing not to at home because it's boring and it's easier to pee/poo in a nappy than pay attention to signals his body may be giving him about his needs to 'go'.

A friend had the same problem with a pre-school that were reluctant to take a child in nappies. They said that they a) had no provision for changing nappies and b) they would have problems with staff ratios. However, they were happy to have my friend's ds in nappies but would not change him. It was only for a few hours so wees didn't need to be changed, but if he pooed then my friend was phoned up and had to go and collect him. It was a nuisance for her, but she accpeted it as the rules. Her ds did not have sn, and she made a big effort to potty train him after she had been called in to sort him out a few times.