Doubts about the flu jab

[zigzag7222]

I'm 24 weeks pregnant and am booked in for whooping cough and flu jabs later this week.

I was planning to get the whooping cough jab done anyway as I know it can be very serious if the baby catches it in the weeks after birth.

However, I'm having real doubts about the flu jab. I know several people who have been quite ill after having the jab and am concerned that the same could happen to me. I've read on previous MN threads that the jab isn't "live", so it's impossible to get ill from it afterwards - but it does seem from anecdotal evidence that it can make you unwell.

I've never had flu in my life (am mid 30s) and mostly work from home so don't come into contact with a lot of people on a regular basis. From what I understand, unlike whooping cough the flu jab is solely to protect the mother, not the baby.

My instincts are telling me not to have it, but I'm nervous to go against NHS advice.

I'm booked in for both jabs at the same time - are they separate injections or combined and if so, could I opt to have whooping cough only on the day?

Help!

She told me about it not being a live virus but said the flu jab doesn’t actually prevent you getting flu. The flu is a different virus every year and each year a flu jab is developed to protect against the MOST COMMON type of flu that season. Therefore, having the jab does not mean you won’t get the flu.

Early every spring, the WHO decides which strains are likely to be in circulation during the following winter and these are the strains that are made into the vaccine (one for the northern hemisphere, one for the southern). It takes months to prepare enough doses of vaccine, so there has to be that lead time. Sometimes a different mutation pops up and becomes widespread between the decision and the end of flu season and the vaccine doesn’t match well. Last year’s vaccine was only about 28% effective because a strain of virus that wasn’t in the vaccine appeared later in the season. It’s too early to tell how good a match this year’s vaccine is overall but the two most currently common strains of virus are in the vaccine. Even a mere 28% reduction in my risk of getting flu is worth me rolling up my sleeve and paying £7 at Asda.

Just look at the thalidomide scandal for one!

OK. The thalidomide scandal happened in the late 1950s – early 1960s. It happened because we don't test new drugs on pregnant women. We test new drugs in pregnant animals and animals have different responses to badly deformed foetuses than humans. They resorb the foetuses; we tend to carry them to term. At the time, no-one realised the significance of the smaller litter sizes in rats dosed with thalidomide.

Once it was realised what was happening, thalidomide was of course withdrawn and there was a huge change in the way testing was done. Drugs that get to market now are very safe. There’s also a huge after-market reporting system to make sure that even very rare side effects get reported and noticed. There is just no way that a drug or vaccine that caused terrible, or even mild, side effects could stay on the market now unless it was a very, very good drug and used in very specific circumstances.

BTW, thalidomide is still used now. The very actions that caused such terrible effects in developing foetuses are useful in treating some cancers and leprosy.

I'm genuinely interested to know how you know that the vaccine had no adverse effects on mum or baby? So for the hundreds of women you have given the vaccine to, not a single one has lost her baby or had ANY complications? How would you know that the complications/miscarriage weren't caused by the vaccine?

If a single woman had complications following a vaccine or indeed anything else, it would be hard to tell what was at fault unless she had some sort of immediate reaction. Instead, we look at populations. You compare a large population of women who’ve had flu vaccinations with a similar group that hasn’t, correcting for things like age, nutrition and exposure to other toxins. If the vaccine group has a statistically significant increased rate of complications, there would be a huge panic and vaccines would no longer be given to pregnant woman until the experts had found out what was going on.

Millions of pregnant women have had the flu jab and been fine, OP. I am one of them- had it in the first trimester. But of a sore arm, no other issues. Since then, I've paid for it every year because my DD is not old enough for her own vaccine yet and I don't want to risk one of us exposing her to it unnecessarily at her young age- it's a very dangerous illness. Hang on, I'll Google for you.

Studies have shown that it's safe to have the flu vaccine during any stage of pregnancy, from the first few weeks up to your expected due date.

Women who have had the flu vaccine while pregnant also pass some protection on to their babies, which lasts for the first few months of their lives.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/flu-jab-vaccine-pregnant/

If you have flu while you're pregnant, it could cause your baby to be born prematurely or have a low birthweight, and may even lead to stillbirth or death.

Realistically, OP, we know that the jab will not cause any serious problems for you or your baby. However, if you don't have the jab and either you or your newborn contract flu, leading to damage or death of your baby, will you be able to live with yourself, knowing that you could possibly have prevented it, but let anti-vaxxers on Mumsnet convince you not to?

There are no guarantees, but apparently this year's vaccine is fairly effective. However, even if you contracted flu having had the flu jab, you'd know you'd done all you could to prevent it, which would probably help with the psychological fallout.

If the vaccine group has a statistically significant increased rate of complications, there would be a huge panic and vaccines would no longer be given to pregnant woman until the experts had found out what was going on.

IIRC the population studies between vaccinated and unvaccinated show either no difference in rates of stillbirth, miscarriage and premature birth or decreased rates in vaccinated populations.

Which is largely what you’d expect given that

1. being pregnant makes you more likely to catch the flu
2. getting the flu is known to be linked with miscarriage and stillbirth
3. getting a flu jab reduces your risk of catching flu

@Rubyroost I had whooping cough when I was about 12. I was too old to whoop, so I just coughed. And coughed. And coughed. I coughed for six months. Constantly. Multiple massive coughing sessions, every day, sometimes so bad I threw up, sometimes so I couldn't breathe. My lungs have never been the same since. I cannot describe how much I would never went a baby to catch it. I would really strongly advocate for getting the jab.

I didn’t have mine last year when I was pregnant and that was a very big mistake! I got the flu really badly leading to a chest infection then went into labour and with the strain on my body from labour I became very poorly very quickly! I had sepsis, I had emcs as baby was distressed and to Save my life too. This could have been avoided had I just had the flu jab.
Please have it!

However, if you don't have the jab and either you or your newborn contract flu, leading to damage or death of your baby, will you be able to live with yourself, knowing that you could possibly have prevented it

No I wouldn’t be able to live with myself.

I think that’s your answer OP

Just to add, as I always do to these threads, my son nearly died from H1N1 (swine) flu as a baby. No idea where he picked it up, never thought in a million years it would happen to us, but you can bet your ass we all get our flu jabs done the instant winter starts!

It’s also why I get cross seeing people write things like, “We have never had a jab and we are fine and healthy,” which of course you are, until you’re not.

@zigzag7222 I had the jab before Christmas. My arm felt a bit bruised for a day or so but that was about it. You have so many things to worry about in pregnancy. The way I see it, by having the jab, it's one less thing to worry about, not one more. I read about the 1918 flu pandemic in my town, and so many pregnant women lost their babies. I read the 2009 outbreak was bad for this too. It just isn't worth taking the risk to me.

I've looked after several preterm babies who had to be delivered early, by caesarean section, because their mothers needed intensive care for flu, and it was no longer safe for mother or baby to try to continue the pregnancy. So it is for the baby, as well as for the mum.

Maybe some would say I’ve already been playing with fire by waiting until late January to have it done. As I say, my gut instinct is telling me not to have this jab, but I can see that logic should override gut instinct.

I have to say, it’s pretty crap how the jab is only around 40% effective as well.

Where did 40% come from? Its different every year and theres no way of telling just yet how effective it has been this season.

Equally, the jab contains different strains each season. So if you have the jab each season you develop an immunity to a variety of strains. In that way it becomes more effective each year.

I had the flu jab at around 18 weeks and had a slightly sore arm.

I did develop a mild cold just before Xmas and it was miserable to not be able to take any proper decongestant medication for it. A bad cold or flu would have been horrendous.

I am wondering if your gut instinct is in fact a form of prenatal anxiety. Have you had any other anxieties during your pregnancy?

@zigzag7222

The thalidomide scandal from 60 years ago ensured that much more thorough research is now carried out on any drug. That's one of the reasons why it costs so much and takes so long to get drugs into usage.
Mistakes that happen in medical science now tend to be through human error; either the doctor prescribes the wrong dose, the patient doesn't follow the instructions carefully or the pharmacist makes an error when preparing the prescription.
My MIl was on a stash of different drugs and seemed to be getting worse, we were really concerned. But it ended up that she was confused about dosages etc and was either over or underdosing herself. Human error, not the fault of the drugs.
No one can force you to have a flu vaccine. Millions of ££££ are spent each year by the NHS, NICE and pharmaceutical companies to ensure it is safe for all groups. If you want to take a much bigger risk of the consequences of not having it, it's your choice. But at least ensure you're correctly informed!

I’m definitely having the whooping cough jab, as I’m worried about the effect on my baby if they were to catch it as a newborn.

It should be the same thought for the flu jab. As PPs have said if you caught flu while pregnant it can lead to complications, premature birth and death. I don't understand how that isn't enough for any pregnant woman to get it at the first opportunity. Neither vaccine contains any live bacteria.

My grandmother has always refused to get a flu jab for the same false belief it makes you ill... until late last year when she got flu and very nearly died. She'll be first in line this year for it.

I am wondering if your gut instinct is in fact a form of prenatal anxiety. Have you had any other anxieties during your pregnancy?

Yes, I’m an anxious person generally and have worried quite a lot during pregnancy about various things.

One of my patients contracted flu in pregnancy. She ended up in intensive care for ten days and nearly died. Prior to pregnancy, she’d been a distance cyclist, very fit and healthy. Don’t underestimate the seriousness of flu, or the extent to which pregnancy can affect your defences

Yes, I’m an anxious person generally and have worried quite a lot during pregnancy about various things.

In which case, OP, there is no amount of research or MN threads which can reassure you. Your anxiety is looking for a 100%, absolute guarantee that the flu vaccine will be both perfectly safe and guaranteed to be effective. This is of course impossible - but even if it were possible to give you such assurances, your anxiety would mostly likely transfer to another aspect of your pregnancy.

You need to acknowledge that your uneasiness is due to your anxiety, which is affecting your ability to make a rational judgement. You can then make a decision not to allow it to overshadow you making that judgement for yourself. If you find that this is happening a lot, or that you're experiencing intrusive thoughts, then please have a chat with your midwife or your GP.

I am a doctor who has worked in intensive care and looked after pregnant women many times who have been critically ill with the flu. Please please get the vaccination. Flu is nasty anyway but pregnant women are an incredibly high risk group for a number of reasons as other posters have already stated. When we had the swine flu outbreak the worst affected were pregnant women in my region and it was horrific and so scary. I would urge anyone who is pregnant to get the vaccination when they are offered it.

I’m a doctor as well and I was first in the queue for my flu jab when it was offered at work. Flu season is far from over, I have picked up 2 patients so far this week who were admitted with random symptoms, decided to do a flu swab and positive. So glad I have had the jab although I know it is not 100%.

I’m booked in to have it later today and have a massive feeling of dread. I just read about another woman on MN who had a bad reaction to the jab and ended up in hospital on steroids (but also said she would have the jab again if she was pregnant again ). It goes against all my instincts to be willingly injecting something into my body that it would normally want to avoid and I feel so uneasy about it.

Also, if it’s an inactive virus then how come a lot of people report mild side effects after the jab, such as feeling a bit under the weather and having a high temperature? It obviously does have some effect.

Sorry but I can't believe that in this day and age people are still questioning vaccines and willingly putting their baby's lives at risk over a few posts on an online forum 🙄 do you honestly believe that thousands of medical professionals are telling pregnant women to get an unsafe, unnecessary injection? Of course not.