Doubts about the flu jab

[zigzag7222]

I'm 24 weeks pregnant and am booked in for whooping cough and flu jabs later this week.

I was planning to get the whooping cough jab done anyway as I know it can be very serious if the baby catches it in the weeks after birth.

However, I'm having real doubts about the flu jab. I know several people who have been quite ill after having the jab and am concerned that the same could happen to me. I've read on previous MN threads that the jab isn't "live", so it's impossible to get ill from it afterwards - but it does seem from anecdotal evidence that it can make you unwell.

I've never had flu in my life (am mid 30s) and mostly work from home so don't come into contact with a lot of people on a regular basis. From what I understand, unlike whooping cough the flu jab is solely to protect the mother, not the baby.

My instincts are telling me not to have it, but I'm nervous to go against NHS advice.

I'm booked in for both jabs at the same time - are they separate injections or combined and if so, could I opt to have whooping cough only on the day?

Help!

A close relative had a number of stillbirths and neonatal deaths because of flu (she won’t confirm how many but definitely more than 2). The problem isn’t the flu illness itself it’s the encepholaphy / pneumonia / sepsis / meningitis it causes when the baby catches it that is the problem. You also have the added burden that if other baby near yours in the NICU catches your baby’s illness that was your fault too.

If it helps I am seriously immunocompromised - in hospital I have to have a side room, I'm not allowed to sit in a&e waiting or the doctors waiting room etc. If someone has tonsillitis within 10ft of me, I get it
I have it every year, the only side effects I had this year was a sore/red/hot patch on my arm for 2 days. And if anyone is likely to get unwell from it, it is definitely me!

See I find these threads really difficult. There was a similar a few weeks ago and I gave it my absolute all. I am 39 weeks pregnant and so so exhausted to argue with someone whose rationale is so many sorts of wrong. I could leave it but then I think of the many many others who are lurking or who will do google searches and hit this thread and read and making a solid argument is beneficial not just for the OP but for those others too who will “read a thread on MN” to make medical decisions but these threads are so fucking exhausting. Here goes -

1. Nothing is 100% risk free. That bit of infant calpol? Nope. The hormones in your dairy? Nope.

1. Parents love their children the most (usually). Love is not an expertise though. If you love your children the most then when they encounter problems you seek the best experts. If it’s legal expertise you need you seek a lawyer. If it’s eduarional expertise you need you seek the best school. If it’s medical expertise you need you seek doctors and the Public Health Service. Love itself is not an expertise. If you love your child you do not pretend that googling and reading anecdotes on forum threads is going to give your evidence based expertise. Your love should make you seek out those who have expertise. You do not take on the role of your child’s lawyer doctor or educator.

1. You need clarity on the word “research”. Googling things on random websites, gathering anecdotes, and reading threads like this isn’t “research”. Research is evidence-based. Evidence is collected, evaluated and fed into public policy and professional training through rigorously designed and controlled studies the outcomes of which are published in peer reviewed professional journals which are usually behind paywalls. These are study material for those doing their higher degrees, phds, medical or legal degrees in that specific field. They use such material to conduct and produce research which is then evaluated and implemented over time into public policy through complex processes. As lay people we cannot simply go and do our own “research” by reading forum threads and applying common sense.

1. Finally - I said this on the other other thread a few weeks ago. We live in dangerous times globally. Our leaders have trained us to believe that (1) expertise doesn’t matter (2) the judges are the enemies of the people (3) doctors and the NHS are out to get us (4) the common sense of the common man reigns supreme and (5) mothers instinct knows best. This is not true. Expertise does indeed matter. Mothers do not know best even if they might love the most. Medics and the judiciary and public health experts are not out to get us. This distrust and chucking away ofnevidence and expertise has led to much political ruin around us - from climate change denial to referenda to social media “armies” campaigning against the NHS for decisions on end of life care for very sick children.

Please reconsider your expertise, please consider what “done my own research” really means, please reconsider the role of parents in the context of specific expertise.

I also believe that some of the antibodies protect the baby when they're born from contracting flu. Perhaps I'm wrong.
My mum and sister, both youngish had the flu a few years ago and they were seriously ill. Took them months to properly recover. I'm not sure why you'd risk that when pregnant.

Amazing post Thoughtless - completely agree.

OP get the flu jab, seriously. And continuing the anecdotal evidence, I had the jab as pregnant and had no ill effects. My husband was not eligible and didn’t pay so no jab. He was off work for a fortnight and really sick with what we assume was one of the protected strains of flu as I (and therefore the baby) were completely unaffected. We will both probably pay for jabs next year.

Also health initiatives such as free flu jab for the vulnerable are offered by the NHS based upon evidence.
I await your thread querying the MMR in just over a year.

My friend caught flu when pregnant and died. Your immune system is lowered. Why would you risk this? It’s not a live virus so cannot cause you to catch flu.

OP get the flu jab, seriously. And continuing the anecdotal evidence, I had the jab as pregnant and had no ill effects. My husband was not eligible and didn’t pay so no jab. He was off work for a fortnight and really sick with what we assume was one of the protected strains of flu as I (and therefore the baby) were completely unaffected. We will both probably pay for jabs next year.

Thanks Arya - that makes me think I should have it just in case.

And while I do almost always take expert advice when it comes to health, sometimes they do get things wrong. Just look at the thalidomide scandal for one!

I shake my head at these threads. Flu jab is your choice. You wana risk getting flu, being seriously ill, risking your unborn babies life. You go ahead. You are immunocompromised in pregnancy & so more likely to catch illnesses.

I’d never had flu in my first pregnancy at 29 (but obviously had the jab) but I’ve had it now at 32. Just because you’ve never had something is a rediculous argument not to protect yourself. It doesn’t make you immune. It just makes you lucky. I was horribly ill with flu when my daughter was 6 months. I ended up in hospital, I genuinely felt like I was dying. My temp was spiking over 40 & they couldn’t get it down despite multiple meds trying to do so. I was hooked up to oxygen machines, I struggled to breathe for days, my stats were awful. At one point, they thought the virus had caused sepsis but thankfully that was negative. I dread to think what it would be like pregnant & you can’t have many of the drugs & my oxygen levels were horribly low. And the affect of my high body temp on baby! It doesn’t bear thinking about.

Yes, the flu jab can give side effects. They are mild. I had a sore arm & felt like I had a mild cold for a few days. In comparison to the flu, it wouldn’t even register.

As for thalidomide, it was in the bloody 1950/60’s. Safe to say science & medical research has come a LONG way in 40 years! The flu jab has been safely given to woman for over 10 years. Please don’t use Dr Google & read all the anti-vax scaremongering! Please trust doctors & science.

The thalidomide scandal was 60 years ago.

You're seriously using medical evidence from 50 years ago to back up your argument?

You're seriously using medical evidence from 50 years ago to back up your argument?

I just don’t have completely blind faith in experts and authority like some seem to on this thread. Do you honestly think that doctors get every single thing right? That mistakes are never made?

Expert advice on what we should/shouldn’t eat changes on a regular basis - one minute a glass of red wine is good for you, the next it causes cancer. Pregnant women were advised not to eat peanuts, now it’s considered ok. Advice changes all the time.

There’s a chance that certain medical advice or procedures that are widely used today could be discredited in 50 years time when knowledge advances or the side effects become known. Who knows?

My sister caught flu when pregnant and she as laid up for 3 weeks or more and it was absolutely horrendous wasn’t offered flu jab by the time she caught it and says she’s never felt so ill (has had cancer previously)
Flu season is still on, till at least end of March I’m a nurse so had mine kids had theirs. Def find I see less cases of whooping cough in babies since mothers are vaccinated
Take date whatever your decision

I just don’t have completely blind faith in experts and authority like some seem to on this thread. Do you honestly think that doctors get every single thing right? That mistakes are never made?

Where do you go when you're ill, out of interest?

Where do you go when you're ill, out of interest?

The doctor obviously, and I’ve never not taken their advice. But the flu jab is one of those things I’ve always been wary of.

Interesting first post, OP.

Just look at the thalidomide scandal for one!

Your ignorance is shining bright here OP.

Get the flu shot but do be aware that the flu shot isn’t like other vaccines. It’s effectiveness varies wildly year to year. Usually it averages out to 40-50% effectiveness but some years it can be as low as 15%.

So if you decide to get the shot, practice basic hygiene too as this year’s shot is looking like a poor match ...

I didn't have it. I've never had the flu and am a healthy adult with a good immune system. The jab from the previous year when I was pregnant was 14% effective...! No vaccines are tested on pregnant women, as it's obviously unethical. If I'm not allowed to drink alcohol, eat soft cheese etc then I'm sure as hell not injecting toxins into my body! Mumsnet is not the place to get advice for this anyway, I would look elsewhere for informed advice!

I’m a practice nurse.

I have given flu vaccine to hundreds of pregnant women. Not one has had an adverse effect to herself or her baby (beyond an expected side effect such as a sore arm or mild temperature). We audit just about everything in primary care and I can assure you if we had a correlation between flu vaccine and negative effects on women and their unborn babies we’d know about it.

Flu season is still active, hence why the vaccine is offered to eligible groups up until March 31st. We are still seeing flu so contrary to what a PP said no we are not over the worst of it.

Of course the vaccine only protects against four expected strains of flu and there are many more circulating, but interestingly the flu vaccine in general seems to offer you a more robust immunity against all flu strains. So you might still get flu but it would be weaker and you are less compromised than you would have been without the vaccine.

Pregnant women are so vulnerable, please consider the vaccine.

Oh and there’s no thiomersal in the the UK flu vaccine.

Also, just in case you didn't know, the 'whooping cough vaccine' is actually the DTAP vaccine, so not just one, but three seperate vaccines. My midwife failed to mention this to me!

Do you honestly think that doctors get every single thing right? That mistakes are never made?

I dont believe that anyone gets every single thing right. I do, however, believe in medical research. Its interesting that you say you go to the Dr when you're ill but the flu jab is something you've always been wary of. You've said (I think) its because you dont think its well researched enough for pregnant women, but a PP has argued far better than me that you're gambling on the wrong thing. The effects of flu on pregnant women are well researched.

Do you think you'll get your children get the flu vaccine, based on your arguments?

Anyway, you've said in a post above that you think you'll get vaccinated now 'just in case'. Great!

All the best

@Sidge I'm genuinely interested to know how you know that the vaccine had no adverse effects on mum or baby? So for the hundreds of women you have given the vaccine to, not a single one has lost her baby or had ANY complications? How would you know that the complications/miscarriage weren't caused by the vaccine?

Not one has had an adverse effect to herself or her baby (beyond an expected side effect such as a sore arm or mild temperature). We audit just about everything in primary care and I can assure you if we had a correlation between flu vaccine and negative effects on women and their unborn babies we’d know about it.

@witchy89 from the audits that are completed to ensure safe practice.

Im also a nurse, but work in A+E. I see people with flu everyday, and they are so poorly.