Controversial did anyone drink in pregnancy??

[Lmj25]

Not saying I would was just wondering did anyone?

...yeag, except that evidence is flawed to. It doesn't show a causal link (ie the better results were because of the drinking).

It could just be that well educated mothers were more likely to drink than less educated ones (not saying that's the case, just that it didn't take that into account).

This isn't an issue worth being a dick about. It's like arguing about a favourite colour - no-one can be wrong

Gennz I’m going to be a dick and query what on earth your ‘university education’ was in if you have done what I have believe you have done which is to cite the daily fails incorrect and dangerous reporting eight years ago on some research.
Was this the research you spoke about, regarding the children of mothers who drank alcohol lightly in pregnancy having better cognitive performance?
www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/light-drinking-in-pregnancy/

If it’s not and there is some reliable research that actually says a mother drinking in pregnancy Is beneficial for the child then please direct me to it, but I think you either don’t understand what the research has actually said as opposed to what was reported, or you are talking bollocks to back up your point.
If it’s the latter please remember you are on a public forum citing rubbish, and some women may read that research has said drinking can be beneficial and use that to justify them self drinking to a level that may harm their unborn child, (as I’ve previously said so many people don’t understand light drinking/units).

In fact there IS evidence to suggest that children of mothers who consumed alcohol lightly ( 1-2 drinks per week) in their 2nd and 3rd trimesters had better overall cognitive performance and fewer behavioral and attention problems than children whose mothers abstained from drinking during pregnancy.

I have to say that anecdotally - and I know it means nothing - this is my experience. I drank maybe 1 drink a week with my third. Pretty much nothing with my first two. She is by far the most academic, and focused of our children. I don't think it was the occasional glass of wine that did it mind you - just luck of the draw. But if you tested me/put me in a study, that is what I would report.

I think the poster upthread said it best - people will interpret safe limits incorrectly so it is easier to say "don't drink" and pretty easy to follow. If you do have one drink, I don't think anyone really thinks it is a cause for concern.

Of course it's not causative, I didn't say it was, nor did I say that light drinking drinking was "beneficial", nor did I cite the Daily Mail. Read my post. (I agree with your theory Nimbly)

shipshape there is zero evidence that light consumption of alcohol - as in 1-2 alcoholic units a week, which is 10-20mls of pure alcohol, yes I know what a standard drink is - is harmful during pregnancy.

I also take issue with your position which appears to be "be careful what you say on a public forum, some women are too dumb to understand". This kind of paternalistic treatment of women by maternal health services is problematic IMO.

I understand why the guidelines err on the side of caution but equally I am very comfortable that the choices I have made are sensible ones.

I am a lawyer since you ask.

And that's exactly why the NHS says don't drink.

But I'd rather be given the information to make my own decision, and so I offer the same courtesy to others.

Gennz you said there IS research that suggests mothers who drink lightly in pregnancy, have offspring with better cognitive performance. You made no mention of the fact that it was not proven to be causative. In fact you even used this rubbish research to say that if you were going to be a dick about it you made better choices (than a poster who chose not to drink).

If you are referencing a different piece of research, Where is this research? I’m still waiting?
That’s right there’s none. It was the research that the daily fail reported incorrectly.
FWIW in my first pregnancy, I did have one drink on a few occasions, 1-2 units. But I agree that the government have been wise to say no alcohol at all now. Like you, whilst I am quite convinced there is not sufficient evidence to suggest a drink of 1-2 units less than 1-2 weekly is harmful to a baby in utero, it is true that some women will not fully understand units and light drinking.
I also wouldn’t quote rubbish research to try and prove that I was correct in having the occasional drink, and made better choices than a mother who chose not to. I made those choices on the reliable evidence at that time. I’m well aware that there is no reliable evidence to suggest my occasional drinks could have benefitted my ds. They really didn’t.

Regarding my asking you to be careful about talking rubbish, Call my attitude paternalistic if you wish, but when the consequences of someone misunderstanding could mean damage to a baby, I’d go for the paternalistic attitude every time. Dont forget women with little, education, learning disabilities, poor English have babies. At least with no alcohol, this is a rule everyone can understand. I can see why the
guidelines are what they are.

I’m pregnant at the moment, whilst I can work out units reliably etc, I probably won’t have a drink this pregnancy. I don’t however, have a problem with a woman who has weighed up the risks and is confident in being able to monitor exactly the alcohol units, having an occasional drink however. As long as they aren’t spouting none sensical ‘research evidence’ that somehow their choice has benefitted baby.

Finally, I ask you, if the current guidelines from the nhs are too strict, what’s the worst that can happen? A women who otherwise would have had an occasional drink doesn’t. Hardly the makings of tradgedy. Not compared to what could happen if the guidelines were more lax/less directive/more ambiguous and a mother mis interprets/misunderstands....

It's not rubbish research, it is a well-designed cohort study. The way it has been reported by various outlets is a bit rubbish. The way I phrased is is correct, I never said "study proves light drinking is beneficial". You were the one who posted the Daily Express link!

I'd never say my choices were better than someone who chose to abstain - I don't think they are (but nor do I think they are worse). Previous posters do, however, think their choice to abstain is "better" than the choice to have an occasional glass of wine, and my point was to that earlier poster who said her choices were better. I disagree hence "if I wanted to be a dick about it" etc. I think you are missing the point by a mile

I think that being overly paternalistic when advising pregnant women can be counter-productive; it can damage the credibility of the advice-giver and people could feel more empowered to ignore said advice to their & their babies detriment. That creates its own risks.

How about we try arming women with accurate, non-fear-mongering information? Just an idea...

Accurate data is indeed key.

The problem is getting that data. The Dutch cohort studies show that very low levels are not associated with significant negative outcomes at a population . That’s not the same as establishing a ‘safe’ lower limit for individual consumption.
Other meta-analyses (eg Mamluk etc al,
bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/7/e015410 ) have picked up a small signal of association with being small for gestational age at low levels. They also note how sparse and poor most of the research is. You can’t assign women to groups and nake them drink x amount, you can only do retrospective studies that rely on self reporting. That has its own problems (people are crap at it) and it’s really hard to control for confounding factors. Such as women who have these ‘light’ drinking patterns tend to be better educated, healthier, better self control etc and from different socioeconomic groups than both women who abstain totally (which includes some ethnic minority groups who may be poorer or have worse health and also people who abstain for medical reasons like previous alcohol issues.) in fact that’s one reason why teetotallers tend to associate with lower health status - in that group you include a lot of people who have lower health outcomes anyway.

Anyway, it’s very difficult for public health to give recommendations because we know that alcohol is a teratogen and we can’t establish a safe lower limit. We think that very light consumption is not detrimental at the population level. We know that individuals have different alcohol metabolism and susceptibilities. When you add all that together the NHS advice is simple and cautious but not scaremongering.

It’s entirely reasonable to not drink anything during pregnancy. It’s not precious or any kind of passive aggressive judgement on people around you drinking. Alcohol is not an essential unavoidable item.

It’s also reasonable to have very light consumption if that’s what you want. Women cannot be treated like passive vessels with no agency of their own.

What’s needed is good data and that data well explained in a manner that can understood by all women. And MUCH more support for women who genuinely have alcohol issues - the worried fretting over a tiny glass of fizz at a wedding sometimes forget there are women out there who need real help and that help is not always available to them.

I drank on the odd occasion

A small glass of red here and there.

Full of antioxidants.

I know some people who didn't touch a drop but lived off KFC and ice cream.

Great post Anatidae

It’s entirely reasonable to not drink anything during pregnancy. It’s not precious or any kind of passive aggressive judgement on people around you drinking

Oh I quite agree - I didn’t drink during pregnancy either.

It was the “you must be a raging alcoholic to even consider having a sip of prosecco at a wedding” and “I love my baby far too much to consider selfishly sipping a half shandy” posts that were passive-aggressively judgemental, not the abstinence itself

my midwife said the odd glass is completely fine as long as its not enough to get you tipsy id say go ahead.

I didn’t drink with my last pregnancy and I’m now 30 weeks and haven’t with this one.

Is it a big deal? Nope. Does it make me a better parent? No. Am I more informed or less informed than the next pregnant lady? Nope.

I just didn’t want to. Plus the smell of things like spirits etc would turn my stomach, can’t see how it would be appealing. It’s not even that long of a period of time, people do harder things for longer

Snorey the positive to drinking moderate amounts - so one or two glasses a night - are that it's relaxing, which is a positive all of its own

I would argue that 1 or 2 glasses a day is a hell of a lot- certainly not what I'd call moderate and way more than I drink anyway, let alone in pregnancy. There are plenty of ways to relax that pose no risk to a developing baby- I opted for those.
For the record, I have a masters degree, a professional job and two very bright children, the eldest of which attends a super selective grammar school and has ridiculously high targets for GCSE. She was, incidentally, a fluent reader when she started school. Was that because I didn't drink? I doubt it! I do find the notion that had I drunk a few glasses a night/week/month during pregnancy they would have been more intelligent ridiculous though. I have not read any research to argue such a thing and would be very interested to read it.

- so one or two glasses a night

That’s not light drinking.

And that’s part of the problem. A couple of drinks a night is seen by some as light and others as a lot. People are quite bad at judging intake which is another reason for the cautious recommendations- it’s MUCH easier to say ‘none’ than it is to expect people to moderate sometimes.

Being relaxed is nice, but everyday stress isn’t harmful to babies. Extreme stress can be (not always though, as I said previously here’s a LOT of crap about cortisol..) but the general crap we all have isn’t. Two glasses a night every night is excessive and that’s the sort of level where some women will see effects.
And again, people differ markedly, so some of those people will think ‘well so and so drank that much and was fine.’

This is the ‘uncle albert’ effect where people underestimate risk with the thought process along the lines of ‘well uncle Albert worked in the asbestos mine and drank a litre of vodka and day and smoked and he was fine!’ ... some people just are, but not all.

A glass once a week is not associated with negative outcomes - 1-2 a night is problem territory.

I do find the notion that had I drunk a few glasses a night/week/month during pregnancy they would have been more intelligent ridiculous though. I have not read any research to argue such a thing and would be very interested to read it.

The general opinion in the field is that this is a confounding error. The set of ‘women who drink very lightly’ is skewed towards richer, healthier, more educated and higher socioeconomic status, so their offspring will be too. Comparing against teetotallers is tricky because that set of people includes those who have health problems, ex alcoholics, and ethnic minority groups who may experience more poverty etc. It’s certainly not a group who are teetotal purely because they are health fiends.

Public health research is hard! :)

When not pregnant I am absolutely the "woman who drinks very lightly" which is what makes it very easy for me to stop all together when necessary. I consider pregnancy to be one of those times and, to be honest, most people I know feel exactly the same.

For the record, I have a masters degree, a professional job and two very bright children, the eldest of which attends a super selective grammar school and has ridiculously high targets for GCSE. She was, incidentally, a fluent reader when she started school. Was that because I didn't drink? I doubt it!

And yet, as educated as you claim to be, you just can't seem to wrap your mind around the fact that what other EDUCATED women choose to do under the guidance of their healthcare practitioner (guidance which of course varies from country to country) is just as valid and correct as your choice not to drink alcohol during your pregnancies.

No alcohol = safe
1-2 units per week = marginally less safe

Marginally less safe does NOT equal "dangerous" and anyone implying it does is being deliberately obtuse, stubborn, judgmental and frankly, ill-educated.

The only opinion that mattered to me during my pregnancies, was that of my OBGYN. And given that his research in the area of foetal and maternal medicine is far greater than, I would hazard a guess, yours (unless you're a successful obstetrician/gynecologist), I feel far more comfortable listening to him and taking on board his advice than that of a stranger on the internet. Even one as perfect as yourself...

Not drinking in pregnancy is fine. Drinking 1-2 units a week in pregnancy is also fine. Being a judgmental prick is not fine. Just FYI.

Gemz you said there was research to suggest Mothers who drank lightly had offspring with better overall cognitive performance and fewer behavioural difficulties.
So yes in other words you were saying that there was research suggesting light drinking could be beneficial. After all I think it’s fairly obvious that most parents would agree better cognitive performance and an absence of behavioural disorder would be positive/a benefit. Don’t you?

Yet you failed to mention that this was not what the research concluded at all. It doesn’t matter how rigorous or well designed or ethical or valid or reliable or credible the research is, because, that is very simply not what the research said. The conclusion made different points.
The authors were clear when they accounted for other variables there was no evidence light drinking was associated with better cognition/lack of behaviour problem.

So as for the nhs giving people the research and then allowing them to make up their own mind, there lies the difficulty.
People misinterpret information, or twist information, ignore information that doesn’t fit in with what they personally think, and then say these things to others and it may impact on their friends/associates.
So even someone as educated yourself, with a law degree, has omitted information about a piece of research, and used it to back your point of view, when as a matter of fact the research said no such thing.

So if a woman unable to understand research and guidelines spoke to you and you said there is research that light drinking can lead to better cognition and absence of behavioural disorder, this may impact on their decision to drink.
After all pregnant women often rely on family members/friends for information and advice when pregnant.

The same women who can’t always think as objectively, because of low educational attainment levels etc are likely to be the ones who miscalculate units/misunderstand light drinking.

I think it would be wonderful if in the uk, all women could access, read and understand research and make an informed decision with the support of their midwife. But I think that’s somewhat idealistic and I do think the nhs have done the fairest thing for all women in the uk and their unborn, by making a rule that everyone can understand.

No. I had a birthday, anniversary and Christmas when I was pregnant and before each event I said I was going to have a glass of wine, but then I just couldn't do it. I would think about alcohol getting into my unborn child's tiny growing body and felt horribly guilty for even considering a drink.

Stroke. Marginally less safe means less safe. I don't much care whether it's a little bit less safe or a lot less safe when it comes to my children. I did and do the very best I can. I do, genuinely, find it hard to comprehend anything else.

I don't judge anyone for things over which they have no control. I absolutely judge women who drink or smoke, take drugs etc when pregnant because, as a parent, I simply don't understand why anyone would add unnecessary risk, however marginal, to a pregnancy.

And that, snorey, is the issue.

You find it hard to understand other people

I simply don't understand why anyone would add unnecessary risk, however marginal, to a pregnancy.

You don't need to understand why educated, well-informed women do their own risk assessment, and come to their own conclusions though, do you?

You're doing the best you can by your children, isn't that all the matters?

It's amusing to watch you do the pious, 'I simply don't understand' routine.

But as long as you're doing your best by your children, you don't need to worry your head so much about ours. They're doing just fine, so you can stop fretting.

Pregnancy isn’t really any different to any other health situation that we way up risks and benefits.

You could say I don’t understand why anyone would ever eat haribo, it’s completely unnecessary and could contribute (however fractionally) to diabetes. Then act totally outraged when your healthy friend who exercises three times a week chooses to have a small packet at the cinema as a treat.

The point is, we might enjoy it and that benefit is of value to us. The risk is infinitesimally small. We make a choice.

No. It's only a few months and why bother risking it?

Someone said, "you wouldn't give alcohol to a newborn so why give it to your unborn baby?" And it really stuck with me.