###### YOOOOHOOOOO ###### K I T T Y L E T T E ######### OVER HEEEERE!!!

[yorkshirelass79]

Message withdrawn

"you can't possibly just thinks its ok to say oh well I'll just kill it"

That's right - that's exactly the thought process most women go through when they consider an abortion. Tra-la-la, casual sex casual sex, whoops I'm pregnant, oh well I'll just kill it.

I don't know what world you do live in, paula, but it's not the real one. The "sacrifice" you talk about can ruin lives - not just the life of the mother, but the life of the child she's unwillingly created. Children from unwanted pregnancies have a statistically higher likelihood of mental health problems, criminal behaviour, drug and alcohol abuse, and homelessness.

"Its not diffrent than child sacrifice and people do it everyday. Its selfish and its wrong.That unborn child has just as much right to live as the mother. Her life is no more important than that life that she has helped create. "

I happen to disagree with this. I do not think that an unborn feotus has as much 'right' as the woman. I admit I have a muddy view of when I think a life of an unborn baby develops the 'right' not to be terminated, but v early on, when it is still forming and has no fully formed functions, no brain big enough to be conscious, when it is still a developing embryo, I personally have no moral objection to termination of that pregnancy. I'm being deliberately blunt about this.

But I can understand those who have a moral absolute view that life is the life in all living cells and that a fertilised human egg is sacrosanct. it is a defendable position, and I sympathise with thise who hold it because i can see that for them termonation is horrible, and that they have an impetus to prevent termination from happening.

What I can't understand is that if you have an absolute position - life is life and sacrosanct from the moment of conception onwards - you can suddenly muddy that with anything like 'exept in the case of rape' etc etc. That is exactly the same as setting thresholds like those of us who accept termination before a certain level of development. So then it is all a matter of degree, and you have to allow that people have different positions and negotiate.

I also think that whereas you might have objections to termination on moral grounds it is rude to answer a question which is not about the ultimate morality about having a termination but about a person's decision based on other factors with agressive posts accusing her of 'exterminating her baby'. it is rude and unkind. And Kittylette admits that actually her position is not an absolute moral one , but one of degree, like the pro-choice people (i.e pro-chpoice in the case of rape), you seem to be doing it from the top of a very shaky pedestal.

Some people who were having abortions at the same time were so cool about it. One was having her 3rd, and shouted at the doctor when he tried to gently talk about contraception. She looked at me afterwards and said "oh, if he comes back, ill lump him one". She used the abortions as a contraception. Some people are like that. No doubt about it, there should be tighter restrictions on abortions. Age limit for starters. 24 weeks is way too late. Proper course of couselling, and the help avaliable before hand. And above all, better advice about contraception etc. to prevent this in the first place. I went to a convent, and for all its wonderfulness, never were we taught about contraception. At 18 I didnt even know there was such a thing as a contraception pill. And I like to think im quite... up to date with things.

"Some people are like that. "

I don't doubt it. I'm sure there are people who have gone through abortions without the socially required degree of shame and self-flagellation, but that doesn't change the principle that abortion should be a legally available, safe alternative to continuing with an unwanted pregnancy - for any woman who wants it.

It must be fairly casual as almost half of abortions in this country are repeats. People do use it as a form of birth control and its naive for people to think that this sort of mindset is not common.

Blu I do not mean to sound unsympathetic to her situation. I do feel bad for her. I also do not feel that abortion is ok in an instance of rape because it is still a life no matter how it was got. However, although I can't even imagine how horrible that must be for someone. I'm not a cruel unfeeling person.

i am still at college ans had a sexual health talk a few weeks ago, this 'lesson' included information on the diseases u can catch. the women teaching us said she wasnt going to talk about pregnancy and the options if u are because she is there to help us provent it. i thought this was handy until we were handed a C card which allows u to get free condoms from may different shops in the south west. so if u go with paulas view is this not the wrong thing to teach young people? use these u'll be fine!

I never said that I disagree with contraception. I'm all for prevention. However I do think that people should be informed that they don't always work and there is a responsibilty that goes with that.

OK, I've actually had two abortions.
One as a result of an accident - and, in fact, non-penetrative sex. Oh, yes, that happens.
The other because of non-consensual unprotected sex. (i.e I did consent to sex, not to 'unprotected').

Am I 'like that'? Was my repeat abortion because I was 'like that'...and if it was, would that make me a good candidate as a mother? i think not! Hopefully children are born to people who want them, not just because they couldn't be bothered to use a condom. And should women be forced to undergo pregnancy as a 'punishment' for unplanned or careless pregnancy? That is a revolting thought to me. 'You've had sex, now have the poor child as a consequence, you've got what you deserved!'. Shiver. And you can't cite adoption as an easy alternative. No-one who watched that documentary the other week could think that.

But whats a good reason for an abortion? All I said was about my mum and college... as far as im aware now, thats against the law. The law states it has to be for the benefit of the mothers physical or mental health. Not to go to college. I really think its easy come, easy go. I think the key is education, also tighter restrictions (age (of baby) and reasons). 24 weeks if far too late, alot of reasons are far too trivial and as I say, its far too easy. Why worry about possibly getting pregnant while your in the the throws of passion is you can take the MAP, or if you cant even be bothered to do that, book yourself in for an abortion, all free on the NHS? I went to GP to talk about my options, abortion, adoption... and foundmyself in the hospital on a bed. God forbid there should be anymore teen mothers! It seemed like its an easy way to clean up the mess. I wouldnt be suprised if they are trying to meet targets.

"I'm not a cruel unfeeling person"

No - you're just someone who would never allow their pristinely simple convictions to be muddied by the bothersome contradictions of real life.

"And should women be forced to undergo pregnancy as a 'punishment' for unplanned or careless pregnancy? That is a revolting thought to me. 'You've had sex, now have the poor child as a consequence, you've got what you deserved!'. "

Absolutely - that's precisely what I find so chilling about the pro-life stance.

Just to add an alternative view - I have had two terminations. In both instances the circumstances were contraceptive failure PLUS many other complex factors/influences including mental health, the insecurity of the relationship with my then husband, and the impact of another child on both my ability to cope, and most importantly on my two children.

In both instances the decision was mine, and mine alone. It was a simple decision, but not an easy one. In both instances the procedure was done early and was very straightforward. I have never once experienced regret nor guilt, except for finding myself in a position where I had to make the decision at all. I probably appeared very 'cool' at the time but I was simply determined, having made the right decision for me and my children, given the information I had available to me, to deal with the situation with an absolute minimum of unnecessary fuss.

I fully respect those who have strong beliefs about the sanctity of life, although I have much more respect for those who are able to demonstrate an unwavering and absolute commitment to living by those beliefs, and I find it deeply regrettable that there is so much confusion between 'belief' and 'truth'.

So, if women should be forced to go through pregnancy because they were irresponsible enough to have sex when they didn't want to have a baby, what about men?

Are you seriously suggesting that women should accept that it's their lot in life to only have sex when trying for a family, and that their needs and body are secondary to a bunch of cells with the self-awareness of krill?

DH and I had a hard time getting pregnant for various reasons, and from the moment I found out I thought of the zygote as my baby, but I've known plenty of women in the type of situations Blu has described above.

I know this will piss you off, but how old are you ppp? I know kittylette is about 23 (I remember the rather contraversial thread she started a couple of months ago), but your attitude seems rather immature and naive to me.

Well - im 20, so shoot me.

oh, ppp... I thoght you meant "people"

quootie.... you had a terrible experience..i don;t doubt some women do use it as contraception, i would like to think they are a tiny minority

no-one here has taken this lightly.. no-one told clothears, go and have an abortion, its a bunch of cells, get it..you;ll be much better off. it;s only a procedure

not one person

neither she, nor anyone else posting has suggested it is a valid form of contraception

and although your life has been terribly marred by the experience, it is not fair to deny other women the right to safe abortion

or to suggest sex is only allowed if you are going to make a baby

Didn't mean you Quootiepie. You sound like you've had a tough time!

I think when people say

"oh, I had an abortion, was the right thing etc etc". People admire that almost, but, when people say "ive had an abortion, it was awful..." people start having a go sometimes, sying "oh, dont you come here, putting people off with your pro-life stuff. Your not helping the situation etc etc." Im not referring to the recent thread, more just in general.

oh, no. Im not saying others should only have sex for babies, thats my personal... "thing". Nor would I ever say "no, dont have an abortion , its wrong" etc etc. I feel... sometimes people have them for the very wrong reasons, and more importantly, shouldnt be in that situation to begin with (in some circumstances) When the option for abortion is there, people take it to end the "pregnancy", and thats what they are almost conned into believing ... they are only putting an end to being pregnant. Like someone said on the other thread (im not refering to this in all that I post) "what would you do if abortion was suddenly illegal?" or something... and they said they would be happy. Its like because the option is there, is HAS to be an option. It HAS to be something they have to decide on. Not just "oh, im pregnant, therefore im having a baby". I know some people do need abortions, I would never speak ill of anyone whyo did it for really drastic reasons, but, personally I feel alot of reasons are far to trivial. Any my biggest ... thing that gets me is sometimes the people should have, and were capable of not getting into that situation.

Bit in general, Qootie, I find it is very hard for people to say 'It was fine' because there is almost an expecatiuon that you are supposed to recount how grief-stricken you felt, and what a hard decision it was, and are considered immoral if you say it was straightforward for you.

There was a thread recently, in In The news, I think, where someone simply didn't believe an observer columnist who said that some peopel genuinely don't find having a termoination hard. But i am one of those people. I DO wish I hadn't been in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy, but since I was in that position, i don't regret the termination.

I think this whole issue is why i have decided to 'come out' about it on MN like this, and not feel 'private' about it.

But I have enormous sympathy for your position, I really do. We are not the same, our circumstances are not the same, and I understand that you have suffered a lot.

what is a trivial reason though quootie? that;s the point.,,it is too persoanl and subjective....

and no-one is conned

no-one has disputed it is a major, life changing decision, with ramifications and repercussions for the rest of your life, no-one...

My reason was trivial. And I doubt im alone. Trivial to me... not having a house big enough (people live in mud huts!) career, unstable relationship. I dont mean a violent husband or anything, I mean... just a rocky relationship. To me they are pretty trivial. More to the point, illegal I think. But no one questions it.

Qootie - it was actually me who asked that question on the other thread, about 'how would you feel if abortion was suddenly illegal..' because the question was about 'what do you really want, deep inside, for YOU', rather than about reacting to other people's views in the decision-making process. Also, I find that being faced with an imaginary situation posed from outside is a handy way of working out how you feel about something. The important factor is that someone does not take a decision against what they really want in their heart of hearts, or makes a decision that they cannot live with in the longer term.

I'm 30. I don't think there is anything more immature than thinking that taking a life to make yours more convienent is ok.

I'm not saying that women should be punished, only that they should live up to their responsibility.I have never thought of motherhood as punishment.

I feel I was conned. I was young, naive (sp?) swept along with expectations of me, and wasnt given full information of options. I was led to believe I was ending my situation of being pregnant, all would be fine, doing the right thing... Add ito that all the pregnancy hormones. Its so hard to look back and think I was that blurred, but sometimes you are.