Beyond despiar

[Sleeplessinnorthlondon]

32 weeks today and feel as if only responsible thing to do is find the bravery to end it. So, so, so convinced have harmed this child with my mood and weakness in being able to control that mood or making the wrong choice in not taking ads in case they hurt him, NHS told me can't help me, credit cards for private support maxed and in any case limit to how helpful that is anyway, feel like worst most useless person alive and just can't believe how far I've let this go. Feel so so sorry for this poor little boy and so desperate. Living with parents now who are so kind but broken hearted by me, not actually going to do anything to end it as would push them and dh over the edge but really feels like should. Can't be honest with anyone in rl about this as there's nothing they can say and so just venting here. Want to crawl away somewhere to hide forever or just die, never felt so stupid and worthless and alone.

Sleeplessinnorthlondon I really wish I could sit down and talk to you in real life. I have read your posts over the months and you could be a friend I know. Like you she didn't know she was pregnant for the first few weeks. She was partying HARD at the time (there as worse stuff than alcohol involved), needless to say this all stopped when she found out. She was on a maintenance dose of AD's. She drove herself mad with worry over what that wild Bank Holiday weekend indulgences had done. Then she spent weeks torturing herself over continuing to take her AD's. We managed to get her help when confided to us how she felt suicide was the best option for her and her baby as she couldn't continue to live with possibility that she'd damaged her and what an awful mother she had been / would be.
She was diagnosed with pregnancy anxiety and given a superb mental health Midwife who looked after her during and after the pregnancy.
Most importantly she has a beautiful healthy son who is now 8 years old. The anxiety returned when she was pregnant 3 years later with her daughter but this time she recognised it for what it was and got help straight away.
In both cases she said the anxiety lessened greatly after she had given birth. I cannot begin to tell you how lovely her kids are and what an amazing mother she is.
Please continue to talk to people. These thoughts are horrible and it's impossible to reason because they will send you round in circles.
This will not last forever, it is not permanent, it will pass and you are nearly there.
Please keep talking to people xxxxxxx

Op, I don't know your back story but I have battled depression all my life and have took high dose ad's through all of my 3 pregnancies. All three of my children are perfectly healthy. I would seriously consider taking the ads.

Lovely, I've followed your threads and you are really struggling.

I know there is no amount of us reasoning that will make you feel better or think differently. I think you need to be really brave now.

Go and present to a&we and tell them you are sucicidal, that you will harm yourself if you are left. They will have to inpatient you. I think that really is your best option right now.

Not feeling so low now, comes in horrid waves but right now too tried to feel bad and happy about cbt so going to go to bed and pray all ok and tomorrow is ok :) thank you all so so much for all your support, means so very very much xxxx

Glad you're feeling a little better and more positive And

Thank you! Also thank you for these hugely encouraging and moving stories so helpful! Xxxxx

Me again. for some reason Saturday mornings always hard, dh away don't want to cry in front of family but just so so scared. Really don't want to go to nct this morning as everyone else there so normal and happy and just feel so ashamed and frightened. I know the chances are I will feel like this until it's over in fact probably after and just wish could sort self out better, just never can hold on to belief that everyone else including family seem to have that have not harmed him for very long, always wake up with this fear and remorse and self loathing. Honestly just using this as a safe space to let it out now, no need to reply as nothing new to say!!! Just feel so so scared and alone and wish could start this all again

Sleepless, someone will always reply to you on here.

You know those thoughts that come to you when you are feeling the most vulnerable are a manifestation of your illness. When you're tired or just woken up or not preoccupied these thoughts can pray on you.

The people reading this thread and commenting might just be words on a screen, but there are people behind the words too. When they tell you that you are brave and strong it's because they/we can see something in your posts that you can't at the moment. But you will and one day you will look back and be incredibly proud of yourself. In the meantime you'll just have to trust us. You will get through the bad times. Your baby will be fine. You are already being a wonderful mother. None of this is your fault. You are nearly there. You are strong and brave

Lemon you are just so so kind, you've no idea how much your words mean. Just so so hard to conquer this horribly strong instinct I've harmed him. Keep reminding self am only one who feels this or believes this, is like an in weird psychodrama! Then I think should take the drugs as next few weeks like this will drive me and everyone else mad then think if really not at risk from feelings but some risk from pills shouldn't take pills - just no confidence in own judgement at all.

There are so many of us around that have battled this demon in one form or another or have loved people who have.

I understand what you are saying about trusting yourself. I think this is hard for expectant mums in general. Particularly if you are used to a professional life where you have control etc.

I won't advise you to take the pills or not, what I would say is trust your medical professional's advice. Let them help and guide you. They will be much more able to judge, even if we are master googlers!

The other thing I wanted to say is don't worry about everyone else. I promise that they just love you and want you to be ok. It's ok to cry and be upset. The people that love will not be driven mad by you and it's much better that RL people know how you're feeling.

Thank you thank you thank you. Again, just no idea how much your kindness means to me xxx

How are you feeling now sleepless?

Feeling ok thank you - mumsnet so kind and supportive. Had a becks blue and think brain convinced self tipsy so helping me relax and off for early night - thank you all so so
Much xxxxx

Sleep well, you know where we are if you need us

Ps - I love becks blue, really felt like Id had a 'proper' drink while I was pregnant with DS.

Thank you so much :) xxxx

Feeling ok but nervous about cbt tomorrow as doing session on guilt which hope will be helpful but am scared will be massive trigger. Basically this is at heart of it all, that having finally got chance to be mum proved didn't deserve it from day one and not just messing up my life or even dh life with this nonsense but unborn kid too. As no certainty in any of this, as in doctors all clear not worried about baby but don't think medical research can ever say 100% about things, something have learnt through this which driven me bit mad! - been trying to find way of framing it that if he does have neurodevelopmental or mental health issues can live with enough to not get in the way of being as good a mum to him as he deserves. What do u think about looking at it like this: on basis of medical views and confidence can say anything that does go wrong almost no more likely to be my fault than anyone else because we don't know what causes all problems but we do know enough that can't be my level of stress in any meaningful sense that it's just part of wider lottery of micro environmental factors affecting things in tiny way, but pretty much impossible to have been anxiety alone.... Think that sort of fits with what doctors have said... How does it sound to you sane people?! Thank you!!!!

Another crackers question for tmrw therapy: why would doctors say if my pregnancy at higher risk than non anxious person as things like schizophrenia etc that some studies say more likely if pregnant mother v v stressed don't present for years and obviously happen for lots of other reasons too so why bother worrying me? Can see why would flag if there were things to look for at birth or v early infancy but most mh or nd issues can think of not clear then - please say if being crackers but do u see my point?! X

Things like schizophrenia are (we think) very largely genetically determined. The current best thinking is that there are several genes involved which create a basic threshold for the person. If that threshold is high enough, the person is likely to develop schizophrenia. It's not a perfect correlation - you can have a pair of identical twins for example with one who has it and one who doesn't. There probably is an environmental contribution to schizophrenia - certain drugs can trigger it, as can very abusive upbringings. But not maternal anxiety in utero. We're talking serious, sustained abuse.

There's NO evidence that maternal stress causes/increases likelihood of things like schizophrenia until you get to the extreme end of the scale - famine, war,...we are talking the level of poor little ones growing up in war zones, seeing unspeakable things happening to loved ones. Even then, the effect isn't massive

Your baby is NOT at any higher risk of schizophrenia, or a neurodevelopmental disorder than anyone else's :) he or she is cooking away in there, absolutely oblivious to your feelings, well protected and just fine.

Honestly, I wish I could plonk you on my sofa and keep you company while your dh is away, I would make you endless cuppa a and tell you a thousand times that it is all going to be ok. You're going to have a gorgeous baby. What you need to concentrate on is you - you're the one suffering, but your baby is fine.

Sleepless I've not posted to you before but looked in on previous threads.
Your post from earlier seems like a really positive step to me, especially in preparation for you CBT.

anything that does go wrong almost no more likely to be my fault than anyone else because we don't know what causes all problems but we do know enough that can't be my level of stress in any meaningful sense

To me this looks like you are taking steps towards freeing yourself from blame for what you fear may happen, and you are right to be doing so. It also sounds like you may be beginning to feel more in control of things (I hope!?) as you are very sensibly identifying what could be a trigger and preparing yourself for it.

From what I know (and clearly there are people here who know way more than me about the technical, scientific and research aspects of all this), maybe your CBT tomorrow could help you work towards replacing "almost no more likely" with "less likely": very soon you will have a gorgeous bubba, and whatever character/strengths/struggles/quirks/foibles/weaknesses/talents/interests your little one develops will be a unique combination of chance, genetics, and the love you will be giving him or her, and not a result of the struggles you (not your baby) have recently been going through.

Good luck at CBT tomorrow.
Please be kind to yourself. You're so nearly there!

Skipton I would come to skipton for that!! We went there in year 6 actually and v happy memories of the castle and malham!!! You're so so good to me, thank you and hope your last few days are going well, thank you so so much xxxx

Sleepless, just now seeing this thread -- wish I had come across it earlier to send you support. Really sorry you're struggling again. You are SO close to having your beautiful boy with you, and you're hanging on like an amazing champ despite this awful anxiety.

I think you've said it perfectly: on the basis of sound medical advice, it is essentially a scientific impossibility that your anxiety has harmed or will harm your baby. As to your second question: if I understand you right, you're worried docs would tell you there's no risk because they're only looking at immediate issues, i.e. problems at birth or in early childhood. But doctors and scientific research focus very much on long-term risks and causes/effect too. Take smoking, for example: you don't normally end up with lung cancer until you've smoked for years, but no doctor would tell you not to worry about smoking because it won't hurt you anytime soon or because something else could end up giving you lung cancer so why bother worrying about the smoking risk. What they've told you about risk (that there isn't any to worry about) applies now and long-term. Hold on to that.

You know what I'm looking forward to? Seeing a picture of your gorgeous little dude in a couple of weeks like the lovely one from another poster above! You will have come through this fire, with your family and so many of us pulling for you, and moving onwards and upwards. I promise you from the depths of my heart that it will be worth it. Please hang in there. You're on the home stretch, my dear!

I am in London 3 days a week -- if you need a RL person to have a cuppa or a cry with, or to sit in a hospital with, just shout.

Thank you so much for this -
So so appreciated. Also, especially offer of rl support! Do have dear friends here and dh back, just don't like to always always be miserable so not on own but do hugely appreciate it, so so kind. Think fear more that if any risk as not much they can do cruel to say anything other than all fine - think basing this on grandma not being told when she was dying by doctors who thought would be too upsetting, everyone seems to think these days doctors generally give v honest views, just at this stage don't know what they'd want me to do with news could be risk and so maybe best deny it. Dh thinks am being nuts and hope he's right!!!

Sleepless, you are doing Fab, just think how far you have come from to get to this part where you are NEARLY at the point you get to meet your little boy!!!

Hope CBT went ok... am here for you in RL, so are ahead of others and you have my contact details xxx

Bit of a setback today. Not horrific but feeling bloody low. Been doing all my CBT etc but felt like had head in sand. Therapist yesterday said she thought reason could not accept support of doctors was because too self blaming / guilty about not behaving / feeling as I thought I should to take any comfort from them and needed to work on forgiving myself. Thought there might be something in it and thought it through...thing is came up with answer could be true but also just fundamentally unconvinced by doctors for variety of reasons, no doubt all crazy but feel sane to me. Put it from mind, got on with it, early night, usual cbt techniques then this morning on radio story about neurodevelopmental problems and fact we don't know what causes them and suddenly triggered into fearing had been totally falsely reassured. Couldn't reach DH who would have been and subsequently has been ace and stupidly texted 2 friends who have already lent on far too much, both preg, one is doctor who have really, really lent on so so much when she has lots going on herself and responses kind but clearly frustrated / exasperated and no idea what to say next. In grand scheme of things know how petty this all sounds, but one didn't have x at the end and feel as if on top of all my fears of having harmed child if have will have also by time diagnosed alienated all my friends with whom used to be fun, no doubt at times annoying but generally not infinitely needy, mad and draining. Losing support network when need it most. Wanted to send her flowers to say sorry but DH said was being crackers and to just leave it now and give poor girl some space. Just feel like this weird, desperate tragic needy child. used to be really genuinely good company at least I think!! Texted few folk living near parents as staying there at mo on Sunday to see if anyone wanted to meet up this week, no one replied. Can't begin to make sense of fact am having 14 yo style friendship paranoia mixed in with clearly more serious terror of having harmed unborn child but all feels tied in - just feel inadequate in every area of bloody life - crap friend, wife, daughter, teacher and mother, most of all mother but not even one other area can look to and say well that is going ok. Safest place in my life mumsnet!

Hi sleepless.

First off, well done you for the way you handled things last night in terms of CBT techniques, etc. That sounds like real progress!

As for the rest, let me say loudly and clearly that you are not being weak, weird, needy, inadequate or mad. You have severe, debilitating anxiety, which is driving your feelings and actions right now, and you're doing all sorts of things right to try and cope with it.

That bit where you hear a radio story or read something in the paper and whoosh, you're off to the races with terror and worry? Recurrent invasive thoughts, unfortunately part of the anxiety parcel. They suck. My DH tried (and failed) to ban me from all news sources for a couple of years as they left me so completely undone. You did well to reach out for a reality check to your closest RL allies and your MN support crew. If you can toss in some of your CBT as well today, you're doing great. Breathe. Take a 10 minute walk in the rain. Find something funny to read (there are some good options for the latter in MN classics!)

That exasperation or frustration you sense in your friends' responses is more likely their intense concern and desire to make all this pain and fear stop for you. But when you're struggling mentally, you feel ashamed and troublesome, so that colours how you read people's communications to you. But if you're concerned about bothering your RL friends, just keep coming here. Your friendships will survive this. YOU will survive this. Your baby will survive and thrive!

You are one day nearer to the finish line.

xx and un-mumsnetty [hugs].