How to broach the subject of childcare with MIL?

[ElleDubloo]

I have a brilliant MIL who I get on with swimmingly. She's delighted I'm pregnant and really excited about having her first grandchild. We live 25 mins away from her (we're actually currently living at her house, because we're having work done to our bathroom). We might move in with her more permanently when I'm due, to have her help with the baby in the early days.

I'd like to broach the subject of childcare, but I'm not sure how to do it sensitively, and without looking like I'm taking advantage of her. TBH, I'd like to take 6 months maternity leave and then return to work full-time, and it would be amazing if she would volunteer to take on all the childcare after that. It's a big ask. She has a part-time job as a teacher, which she has hinted that she doesn't enjoy very much.

Is it reasonable for me to ask her whether she'd like to quit her job so that I can go back to work?
How should we recompense her for the loss of earnings? Could we offer to pay her (because we'd rather pay her than pay a childminder we don't know) but would she take offense?

Would be great to get everyone's thoughts on this :)

"What about if I just give her my debit card and let her use it however she pleases? Incl paying her household bills, groceries, new TV, hiring a nanny in my name, etc etc? Is that any better?"

No.

"I have a colleague who is a single mum and a full-time doctor. My colleague's mother gave up work to stay at home and look after the two kids (grandkids). They share the income. Is that an employer-employee relationship?"

Probably not as that's closer to a SAHP/WOHP scenario assuming the grandmother has the mother's house as her primary residence.

GarthsUncle - What's a WOHP? If my DH and I moved in with my MIL and FIL, would that approximate the above situation?

Seriously OP you're clearly financially well off. Just pay her a wage!!!!! You can go through one of many payroll companies that calculate all the holiday pay, tax, NI etc for you, then you don't have to deal with the paperwork and you won't fall foul of HMRC.

Don't try to find ways of out-witting HMRC, you wo't succeed.

She brought them up a while ago though. I can remember saying something very similar about my (wonderful) dm, but it did not take long before some rather more possessive instincts took over! Allow yourself to change your mind, if need be. I think there is a potential to spoil the relationship by taking on these roles (rather than a more relaxed visiting grandparent role) as there will inevitably be some issues you disagree on (breast feeding? Weaning? Controlled crying? Routines? Fresh air? SIDS guidelines? Smacking? Naps? Fruit shoots?)
You have an adventure ahead of you but part of it does involve not being able to predict everything, which I sense you would like to do!

LOL most of my questions are for interest. This is not an elaborate tax evasion! Just very interested to know more about the technicalities of what is emerging to be a very complicated area.

We were thinking of moving in with the in-laws anyway, so we can be closer to be baby. We started talking about this over a year ago when we first fell pregnant (and MC'd).

WOHP = work out of home parent.

Yes if you move in with your PILs and share a household budget, you might not be employing your MIL. But if a nanny is needed to help your MIL then that nanny would need to be employed.

Would you want to live with your PILs though?

Please note I am not giving personal tax advice, just my opinion.

I would second hiring an accountant or similar to work it all out for you if you hate paperwork! DH is self employed and he loathes paperwork but got rapped on the knuckles (ie a massive fine) for a genuine tax error so now pays a man to sort it out for him.

I am so pleased you are not married to my son (he is too young for you anyway).

I love children, but I wouldn't want you "moving in with me" even for just around the time of the birth. I would think you were strange for wanting to do so, having just given birth is not the most dignified time - and I much prefered only having "visitors" around, and definitely being able to disappear off for a nap without anyone commenting (never mind all the messy bits). I would also not want to bring up anyone elses children - if I had wanted to I'd have become a child minder. It is a huge responsibility, and you will undoubtedly have different ideas on some aspect of child rearing.
Being related has the potential for making things so much worse.

Would you ask your own mother this?

I feel this can be such a grey area. We have lots of extended family nearby. What if the grandparents-in-law (who are still fairly fit) decide to take the baby for one day a weak? What if my own parents come visit for a week every month, or every weekend, to help? What if we send the toddler to live with my parents for a couple of months to give my in-laws a break? I don't want to pay my parents, because they don't need the money, whereas my parents-in-law do. If we reduce their hours of childcare, without reducing the money we give them, at what point does it turn from "salary" into a "gift"?

Once again, bear with me when I say, I think it's silly to tax families for their own private financial arrangements. But hey ho, if that's the way it is...

mummytime - I'll return the compliment. I'm glad you're not my MIL.

Would I ask my own mother to look after my baby? Oh how I wish I could! She died two years ago, and she wished more than anything else to see me married and start a family, and she would have been delighted to help.

And it was MIL who invited us to live with her... just in case anyone thought I was being presumptuous again...

If you pay people to provide a service more than their reasonable additional expenses eg petrol and lunch to provide that service then somewhere along the way that payment will be liable for tax.

Whether they are related to you or not is irrelevant.

Your relatives can provide as much free childcare as they like though!

Ah, when does a relative become an employee? Fsacinating issue. When does an occasional evening babysitter become an employee? When do you employ family? Nigel Farage employs his German wife we now know (rather than an English woman or someone not nepotistically connected to him).

Where I live 3 generations often live together - lots of Indian families and the grandparents do loads of childcare. They won't be paid. Often the grandparents own a very rich business but do not give more than pocket money to the sons for working in it so that if the son divorces the daughter in law gets none of the business or money. I doubt money changes hands for babysitting either or even full time childcare. So if the grandparents allow the children to live in their big house totally rent free and in return the children get full time 5 days a week childcare how are the tax experts of Mumsnet going to say that should be sorted out?

Mummytime, you may have missed up thread that OP is Asian and there are cultural differences. OP, I understand why you have a different outlook about living with your inlaws and vice versa, there are different expectations. I left home and started my own family thousands of miles away from my parents and inlaws. Now I have my children, I love the idea of us all living together as an extended family in the future, at the moment they do too but suspect when they're older and have their own partners they might be less keen!

If you're all living together and your inlaws are your dependants then maybe there aren't any tax issues, I don't know though, as people suggest perhaps best to get some advice, your DH should be able to find out. There must be a very large number of Asian families in the UK in the situation you're proposing, I don't think it's that unusual or unique.

How old is your MIL though? If she is young and still working then she is still paying into a pension probably.

What will happen in 10 - 18 years time when her services may not be needed so much. Will you continue to pay her a decent wage beyond those 18 years? What will her pension look like when she's much older and has no job?

She doesn't have a pension and has never had a pension, for various reasons, but she has savings and a house (and us). I don't really see how that's relevant though?

it's only relevant if she would be giving up a pension and NI payments that she might be getting for her part-time teaching job.

Just thought that it might be something you need to consider for her sake but if she's not getting these perks in the first place then I guess it isn't relevant.

Are you in the UK? How do NI payments work RE the state pension?

Yes we're in the UK. No idea how NI payments work though. And I don't feel comfortable asking her about her financial situation, so I'll just keep it simple and assume that, if she says she's happy with the arrangements, then she's happy.

With the others on this...do not bring it up yet.

You do not know how you will react to being a new mother. I could not wait to get back to work when DC was 5 months. Plenty of people I know (including a bio-medical researcher who was very invested in her career) never returned. Some return to work and find - for all sorts of reasons - they want to be a SAHM - it also works in reverse. Just wait and see how you and your husband feel once baby is here.

That said. I do think you are being a little unrealistic. FT flexible childcare (with some overnights included) is the dream having a moment. But with a family member? Big risk - however lovely you all are.

I assume you get a reasonable degree of warning regarding your nightshifts? Perhaps you can get professional childcare for most of the daytimes and (assuming she is willing) ask MIL to do overnights with DC. But please also be aware that - as other people have said - even such a relatively small amount of childcare would be a HUGE ask. Small children - however much you love them - are exhausting.

Another possibility - is there any way you can request a temporary arrangement whereby you are do not undertake nightshifts for the first six months of after your return to work? I did something similar (for 14 months in total inc. my 5 months mat leave) and it has not harmed my career.

Not a great idea to assume that somebody is happy if they say they are happy. Family can be great (including mine) but is also famous for being a hotbed of quiet resentment.

It also concerns me that you would feel uncomfortable asking about finances, but okay about the childcare. Pretty much everything about childcare can become deeply personal. I would not even think about going down this road if you cannot raise the subject of money.

This is a pretty good starting-point resource for anybody in a similar situation (including grandparents) www.grandparentsplus.org.uk/grandparents-helping-childcare

Thanks Georgina, I saw that page too, very helpful.

OK everyone, I'm pulling out of this thread. Everything's been sorted out beautifully as far as I can see, and continuing to be bombarded with negativities is not what I need at the moment, albeit from people who are "concerned" for me and "watching out" for me.

1. I'll take 1 year maternity leave and look after my baby full time.
2. After my baby is 1 year old, I'll go back to work FT and my MIL and FIL will take over, as they will both be retired by that point. Yes my MIL is only retiring because of the baby, but she wants to stop working and is only waiting for a reason to do so.
3. We'll make sure they don't suffer financially. We'll do everything above board, of course, once we research what exactly that involves.
4. We'll hire a nanny if they require one.
5. We might or might not live with them. Haven't decided yet, but they've made us welcome.
6. Other family members will help out too. A lot.

I've been really blessed by such a great family. And the advice on this thread has been invaluable. I've been upset by people who've accused me of being presumptuous, selfish, tax-evading, and a number of other things. It's hard to judge someone accurately when you don't know them. But things have really worked out in my life, so I hope you'll be happy for me. No hard feelings.

Good luck, OP. FWIW, no one accused you of tax evasion - plenty of people think that the set up you proposed shouldn't cause any tax issues so Penguins, myself and others were flagging this to be helpful.

Good luck ElleDubloo.

I also get loads of help from my mum. I'd get even more if she lived closer. I don't think people are built to bring up babies alone, it's really tough and a team effort is better.
I went back to work as an SHO part time when baby was 10 months, working nights etc, and it was really hard, but I got through and am glad I'm working now. I would miss my baby too much full time though - and full time as a doctor is much more full time than most people's full time. So go easy on yourself and be flexible if you find the idea impossibly hard when you get nearer the time. (You may be the opposite of me and longing to get back to work!)
If you'd suggested living with my parents before I'd had a baby I'd tell you you were mad, but now I wouldn't run from the idea!
I would get your husband on board- you're both having a child and you both need to make sacrifices.

Good luck with your pregnancy and don't let the hospital be complete dicks about it -they were to me! Call the BMA if you hit problems working nights late into your pregnancy etc.
All the best.