How to broach the subject of childcare with MIL?

[ElleDubloo]

I have a brilliant MIL who I get on with swimmingly. She's delighted I'm pregnant and really excited about having her first grandchild. We live 25 mins away from her (we're actually currently living at her house, because we're having work done to our bathroom). We might move in with her more permanently when I'm due, to have her help with the baby in the early days.

I'd like to broach the subject of childcare, but I'm not sure how to do it sensitively, and without looking like I'm taking advantage of her. TBH, I'd like to take 6 months maternity leave and then return to work full-time, and it would be amazing if she would volunteer to take on all the childcare after that. It's a big ask. She has a part-time job as a teacher, which she has hinted that she doesn't enjoy very much.

Is it reasonable for me to ask her whether she'd like to quit her job so that I can go back to work?
How should we recompense her for the loss of earnings? Could we offer to pay her (because we'd rather pay her than pay a childminder we don't know) but would she take offense?

Would be great to get everyone's thoughts on this :)

I said it "might" be a problem just to flag it.

It's not wise for a solicitor (OP's DH) to knowingly breach HMRC regulations, slh122

Slh122 - Good question. I'm not sure. I think HMRC would only become aware of it if somebody else files a report.

GarthsUncle - It's not good for anyone to breach HMRC regulations.

I was going to raise that too Garth.

Also, how do they find out? Any number of ways. Normally when the in laws have to declare the money they have coming in for some other formal reason and someone joins the dots. Or when someone tips them off. Or possibly (not sure about this one) when the OP and her husband disclose their finances to someone official (bank for a mortgage, etc) and there is a possibility it may trip money laundering reporting rules.

No, it isn't good for anyone to breach HMRC regulations. But solicitors can face particularly severe career sanctions for doing so.

Well, I'm a doctor, and it's not my intention to breach any regulations either.

I've done a bit of research this morning and I can't find anything that says we can't give regular expenses/gifts/maintenance to our parents, with or without them providing free childcare for us. But I'll ask my DH to look into it, and we'll do the right thing. My instinct is simply that it's ridiculous to be forced to register your parents as "employees" in this situation. But ridiculous things do happen sometimes, and we'll look into it later when we've got more time.

Yes Elle, you can give them gifts and maintenance. But what you can't do is start giving them these things because they are providing childcare. Which regardless of how you emotionally view it, is what you are planning.

And why is it ridiculous? You don't have to 'register' your in laws as employees. There isn't a register of employees. You just have to tax them as employees and make the proper reports to HMRC. And I see no reason why someone should be able to pay their relative for a job tax free that they'd have to pay NI and tax on if the person wasn't a relative. To that extent, it's no different than a family business - should those people also be paid free of tax?

I'm still not convinced, reasons being:

• We're not a family business. Similarly, if we pay an external nanny, we don't suddenly become a business
• Seems to be just the temporal relationship that's bothering you, the fact that my in-laws' retirement is coinciding with the birth of our child. That must happen fairly often in the general population.
• You still haven't provided me with any official literature to back up what you say.

We're just going in circles now, and will continue to do so until one of us comes up with an HMRC article or other official source of information. As I said, we'll look into it later, and do the right thing.

You need to pay for a nanny- ie the £2000 you mentioned.

Then, give your mil some money to cover expenses when looking after your little one. Ie you could give say £200 for odd things. Then register her oyster with your card so you cover travel expenses. Then pay for swimming classes etc yourself and pay for their food order for example ie register their ocado account to your bank . That's how you avoid tax as you aren't giving a full 'wage to them'. You are simply covering expenses

The nanny wage/ employment definitely needs to be with you though. You need to be liable for nanny sick pay/ holiday pay/ maternity etc etc if needed. Otherwise if nanny went to claim and it wasn't all declared properly then everything would be looked into and you mil would be liable.

I'm 32 weeks and work within the nhs! I've opted to take 9 months off which is fine,we are also already looking at child care, my dh works mon-Friday but the hours change, when ds arrives I'll look after him! I'm his mummy! I won't be moving to my mum although when dh goes back to work she will come help me lifting and stuff!

When I go back to work, I need
To see if it's feasible for me to work 3 times a week long days so from 730 until930 pm, I will have work every weekend one day or the other as dh will have him, we also looking at a childminder one day a week and the other my aunt will have him, she doesn't want paying but has asked for contribution towards things like bus fare! We think we would give her a bit more than that! It means dh needed to broach his employer for flexible working which he did, it can take 14 weeks for
An answer but we are looking at a year away but we need to plan! My mum and sister have offered to have ds for the short time after he has been to childminder until dh comes home!

This is the only logical option we have! We think it will work well provided we get flexible working from both employers!

^ That's a good idea.

I didn't say you were a business. You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me. I was simply making the point that HMRC do not differentiate between relatives and non relatives when someone provides money for a service. Also, I wasn't a business when I hired a nanny. I still had a legal obligation to operate payroll.

It isn't a blooming coincidence of timing. Are you really suggesting that, at this stage in your training, had you not become pregnant, you would have offered your mother in law the chance to give up work and you'd give her a gift of the majority of your salary? I think HMRC will find that unconvincing. Your mother in law has a job. Which she will give up to be free to provide childcare. And there is no suggestion you would suddenly have started handing over your full salary without the childcare aspect.

It isn't my job to provide you with 'official literature'. I am warning you, based on my dealings with HMRC both as an employment specialist by training and as a former nanny employer. Go and talk to someone. Even your own quotation backs up what I am saying to you.

Sorry, delayed posting. My "good idea" comment was made for ArtAndCo.

Bornin1986 - Sounds like you've got it all planned :) Happy for you.

Penguins - We're wasting time and you're getting agitated. I simply need to do more research, so let's stop talking about this for now.

Elle you really need to stop dismissing people's educated opinions on this, they're all right. They're just trying to stop it biting you on the arse further down the line. You're providing money for a service and it should be taxed - rightly or wrongly in our eyes - still should be.

Im still 400 for a suit,

Oh you know what, I give up. You are incredibly patronising. I am not 'agitated'. I am just trying to help you. I am trying to save you from potentially a big tax bill and your husband potentially bother at work. But yes, just agitated and emotional because you don't like what I'm saying...

I'll look into it. Thanks for the tips.

Okay - I haven't commented before, but this may be relevant.

A few years ago we genuinely "forgot" to declare some income. So we didn't pay tax on it.
A few years later HMRC contacted us about it. On re-examining all our records, we realised where the mistake had come from (two amounts of money of exactly the same amount paid in at the same kind of time, but on two different statements). The people who'd paid the money had also not issued all the correct paper work. We did all the foot work to find out how this had happened, quickly repaid the missing tax. However we were still liable for a fine, which could have been up to the original amount of tax (or possibly even more) that is in addition to the tax. Nevermind the possibility of being audited.
We were very fortunate and the Inspector believed us and gave us a very low fine.

Do not underestimate the HMRC ability to spot when tax fraud is happening, and do not think any sob story you come up with will necessarily be believed.
It is your responsibility to ensure that your tax is paid, and tax and NI is paid for any employee.

If you are going to work at a hospital do they have and child care? My local hospital has the best nursery in the area, which is highly in demand.

The problem is that 'expenses' mean petrol, food etc'. A few hundred a year. Not entirely hiring a nanny. HMRC will view £20k at way over 'expenses' and hence it will be a wage.

A lot of handy tips on this thread not
Just for the op but anyone in similar
Position.

Shame a lot of it gets taken out of
Context :-(

Op - could it not be an option topped a joint account with your mil that way she has access to so called expenses?

What is difference between a) OP's plan to get Mil to be in charge of childcare including having a nanny for day times and b) plan suggested by many posters to have a day time nanny and see if mil will take on all the out-of-hours stuff. Would b) not just be a lot more straightforward? Would nannies like working with a pair (once fil retires too) of grandparents in the house along with the baby? I am not a nanny but I don't think I'd be keen on that at all!
OP it is very hard to hand over quite as much control of your dc as you are planning to do. Before you have the child it is hard to know where your parenting style will fall, how this will match up with mil's, how often you would be happy for the lo to be away from you - especially the overnights you mention. I would never have predicted how my work/life balance changed after my pfb was born, or how strongly I felt about him being cared for the way I (and fortunately, dh too!) thought was best.
Try not to plan everything just now.

For me, I hate paperwork and I like things to be simple, which is why it's tempting to just give her £2000 a month and let her sort things out as she sees fit. But I see now it's a bit more complicated than that.

What about if I just give her my debit card and let her use it however she pleases? Incl paying her household bills, groceries, new TV, hiring a nanny in my name, etc etc? Is that any better?

What if we live in the same house? Is that any better?

I have a colleague who is a single mum and a full-time doctor. My colleague's mother gave up work to stay at home and look after the two kids (grandkids). They share the income. Is that an employer-employee relationship?

Didn't mean to sound patronising and dismissive. Genuinely interested.

Also, I respect my MIL a lot. She brought up three excellent kids. I'm sure I'll be going to her for advice, rather than imposing my own parenting style on her.