Wow; it's only circumcision..

[Chloejp91]

Before I get killed, I'm not suggesting it is only circumsion, that's just the title of this thread.

I'm due in less than 4 weeks and I'm having a boy. I'm definitely going to circumcise him. It's part of my culture and my partner's culture so it's going to be done. I just feel sad that it's seen as such a bad thing, where there are some benefits to it.

Anyone circumsised/circumsizing their sons?

ILoveit - a fair proportion are not Jewish or of a religion that advocates circumcision but are from countries where it is done more commonly than in the UK. I'm not sure how that's relevant in any event.

Twofalls,

I posted two links, one to a study done at John Hopkins University and another to the WHO, both saying that circumcision has a definite effect in reducing STD infection.

Even your source says "not significant enough" and not that there is no evidence.

I have never tried to say that the decision to circumcise is a slam dunk. There are legitimate arguments on both sides. On the other hand, the hysteria calling it sexual assault and paedophilia is entirely unwarranted.

Well tonight I'm going to severe my dd's earlobes...as it reduces the risk of her getting cancer by .5%.

"a fair proportion are not Jewish or of a religion that advocates circumcision but are from countries where it is done more commonly than in the UK. I'm not sure how that's relevant in any event."

i think you are sure.

it is relevant in that their reasons for circumcision are likely to be societal pressure to fit in, rather than based on any medically proven benefits (as there aren't any that cannot also be achieved through good hygiene and safe sex)

My DH is Jewish but not particularly religious (otherwise he wouldn't be married to me!) so his choice is not guided by societal pressure to fit in. This is the case with many of the people that I know.

TheFeministParent - it's a shame that you can't approach this debate in an adult manner as most other posters appear to be able to.

as an EX smoker i may or may not develop throat cancer. i may require surgery to remove my voicebox and have it replaced with an electro larynx.

should my parents have taken teh decision when i was a baby to have my voice box removed incase i chose to smoke as an adult?

if i were to fall under a coma at some point and someone were to perform this surgery without any indication that i had developed throat cancer, i would consider this assault.

to perform an unnecessary surgery on a baby is the same, the fact ot is on a sexual organ means it is sexual assault.

"My DH is Jewish but not particularly religious (otherwise he wouldn't be married to me!) so his choice is not guided by societal pressure to fit in. "

surely as a jewish man, the decision to be circumcised wasn't his to make? surely it was done at birth?

Imarriedafrog - on the contrary, the opinions of 2 men can never say all that needs to be said on the issue!

Iloveit - we are back to the debate from yesterday afternoon on what constitues a sexual assualt. Circumcision does not involve a sexual act and therefore does not constitute a sexual assault. It actually doesn't even come under the legal definition of assualt.

"the fact ot is on a sexual organ means it is sexual assault."

Ok, let's knock this canard on the head once and for all.

www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/SexualAssault.aspx

That is a link to the Duhaine legal dictionary which defines sexual assault as "a sexual act upon or directed to another which is unwanted and not consented to by the other". Circumcision is NOT a sexual act.

In addition, in law, a parent can give consent on the part of a child (clearly this consent does have limits).

ILoveit - I was referring to his choice to circumcise our son.

ok SVH78 if his decsion to circumcise your son is not guided by his religion or societal pressure, what is it guided by?

The point that I am trying to make is that his choice is not guided by pressure from anyone. It is a choice based on numerous factors including the community/society in which we live and our religious/cultural backgrounds. It is also guided by significant research into the issue.

so he likes to go against what research suggests?

and it is influenced by his religion then.

SVH78.... Did you watch the link showing the baby being mutilated?

What's adult about saying that you don't mind if your DH wants to mutilate your child?

What's adult about quoting quite flawed and still pointless research?

What's adult about any of this? this is about child abuse. This is about a backward religious practice and blind followers or worse. This is about a bloody excuse for a party.

I can't pull my adult self into a discussion like this because there is nothing adult about any of this, the research clearly shows a baby experiencing pain both during and after the event. That is the only thing the research shows. J.R. Taylor, A.P. Lockwood and A.J. Taylor's research shows lack of necessary fluid post circumcision and sensitivity....and it's 1996, so a little more recent.

excellent research

OK, so lets agree that the medical community are torn as to the benefits of circumcision. The AAP has reviewed all the research and decided in the light of this evidence that the benefits do not outweigh the risks and personally, if I was to put my child through such a procedure for medical reasons I would want stronger arguments that those being presented.

But the majoirty of people who ritually circumcise their sons do not do it for medical reasons. They do it because traditional and religion tell them they should. And that is what I find so barbaric. You are making a decision for your child, to remove a part of his anatomy and cause him immense pain because your religion tells you too. Why does nobody question the validity of this? I simply don't understand how mothers can stand by and watch as a grandparent holds down their precious newborn baby wilst somebody cuts off part of their anatomy. If nothing else you are violating their human rights.

I have read the whole thread and still cannot see any compelling arguments for the practice.

And to compare it to ear piercing (which I also don't agree with on non-consenting children) is frankly ridiculous.

TheFeministParent - if you had read my previous posts you would have seen that yes I did see the video but that I have also witnessed a circumcision in real life which couldn't have been more different from the scaremongering video posted here.

You can't call all research that doesn't support your view flawed and pointless - you're simply not qualified to make that comment - unless of course you're a scientist and have reviewed the research in detail.

We won't be having a party so your assumption there is incorrect!

Imarriedafrog - our religious and cultural backgrounds (which are different) do advocate circumcision but we are not doing it under any pressure.

Iloveit - as has already been stated and acknowledged - the medical evidence is equivocal - so no one is going against "what research suggests"

Twofalls - there's no holding down involved in circumcision of infants. Neither is there immense pain (if you look at the research on the anasthetic used).

I have read the whole thread and see no compelling arguments to change my mind. Which goes to show that it is a matter of opinion (a highly emotive one...)

so if the evidence is equivocal why would you choose to have the surgery done based on it? that doesn't make sense.

ILoveit - I didn't say it was a choice based upon the medical evidence, I said "It is a choice based on numerous factors including the community/society in which we live and our religious/cultural backgrounds. It is also guided by significant research into the issue."