Is it really so wrong to punish??

[Zil131]

DS (2.9) is perfectly capable of getting himself to the toilet and having a wee; but has continually pooed in his pants. Patience to ignore what is a concious act (he runs off if I catch him doing it) is wearing thin. We have just come back from a weeks holiday with the grandparents, where regular poo scraping and clothes changing whilst out for the day has got somewhat tedious.
My dad can't believe us modern mums just turn a blind eye...
Anybody punished? I've tried all kinds of rewards, but nothing seems to work.

and pigletmania has a valid point - if we had to wait on our 3+ yo telling us they were 'ready' we'd be waiting a very long time!! it's called potty training for a reason, and it's the parent's job to coach them and encourage them along the way - yes it's hard work but ofcourse it pays off if you stick with it.

not sure why people are picking on pigletmania - she knows her own child better than we do!

Thanks lovechoc, I am shock that your nephew is in nappies. Isnt he at school? Aren't they saying anything to the parents? I honestly would if I were you say something to them and be frank and honest. We wait until they are ready up to a certain time, not 4.6 fgs.

If that was my dc I would have said right you are a big boy now, these are your big boy pants, there is your potty/toilet you do your wee/poo in there. Nappies are for babies and we are going to give them to the babies who need them. If he says no then let him wet, get him to change himself with supervision and help in the clean up process, that will soon change his mind. Leave him in the wet/soiled pants for a little bit so he knows how uncomfy it is, and say to him that all the big boys will be wearing pants and doing wee/poo in the big boys toilet and that he will be the odd one out.

Unless SN/or physical disabilities make it difficult to potty train earlier that is. But as you have said lovechoc your DN does not have SN or any physical problems, just that he does not know any different and needs to be taught.

it's just a case of 'lazy parenting' pigletmania - both parents can't be bothered putting the time and effort into teaching him how it's done. he definately doesn't have SN or any physical problems - MIL would have known about this and told us when she sees us regularly anyway. He is strong-willed like many children and saying no to his parents is easy because they just accept his response.

Getting back to the OP though, I have to say punishment isn't the way to go although DH did confiscate DS's hotwheels toy until he did a poo in his potty and it worked. He knew daddy meant business.

We always praise him when he does a pee or poo in the potty anyway, and he knows he gets lots of positive attention from us both, and treats for doing well on the potty. It all evens itself out in the end.

I've been doing even more reading round the subject and am trying the theory that young DC's feel that the poo is part of them, and are frightened by the urge to push, as they feel that this part of them will fall out... hence the need to hide, and hope the pants hold it all in. This does stack up with comments he had made like 'Poo poo is going back in'.
If this is the case, then it explains why waving chocoale buttons in his face, or shouting at him to get to the potty, have no result when he is hiding and struggling with feeling like his insides are falling out.

For the past two days I've had in naked from the waist down, and tried to build the logic that the poo is not part of him, it is something which wants to come out, and he has to let it. We have been saying that Mr Poo wants to come out and go to the party at the sewgae works; and we have had success - 3 times in 2 days!!

Hopefully the new theory, and the stickers and choclate which are now being earned will push him in the right direction permanently

zil131 congrats on your success over the past couple of days. That's v interesting re the poo being part of them argument - if that is how they're feeling it must be bloody scary for them

It's still quite early days for us, have been properly potty training for a week. She's more or less got wees sussed (at home at least) but no joy with the poos (waits until the night-time nappy goes on). Will have to bag a copy of this poo goes to pooland thing that everyone's talking about!

Not sure where I stand on the punishing thing, my inclination is that it's all wrong and that it creates far worse problems but I do agree with others that simply saying 'nevermind potty next time' might not do the trick with some kids. Ah well, good luck to you all.

Z1131 if your ds does do it in the pants, empty the poo from the pants in the toilet and get your ds to flush the toilet and say bye bye to the poo. There is also a book that has been talked about by MN called Mr Poo goes to Pooland which is meant to be really good. I even got dd to flush my poo down the toilet and say bye bye to it too To show her that is completely normal. I just dont think that dd recognises when she needs to go for a poo. Sometimes she has and has sat on the potty sometimes not.

my daughter will be three in august and she also is quite capable of goin to the toilet but she is terrified of having a poo on it it may help if u bought one of those childrens toilet seats from argos they are brill and it helps ur child from feeling like they are about to fall down the toilet

DD had one of those baby bog seats. She was quite happy on it, in fact, thinking about it she loved it!

I knew a child who was still in nappies at night at the age of 8. This was because his mum didn't want the hassle of changing sheets etc in the middle of hte night, but that child was the only one I've come across.

Reward reward reward. Perhaps he doesn't like his potty? You could take him to the shops and let him choose one. Or one of the baby bog seats, mentioned above. Make it special; think of something he really likes and do a sticker chart for each time he poos in the right place, with so many stickers getting him that thing.

There are so many ways of rewarding a child for behaviour you want, that it seems relatively unnecessary to have punishments. Punishments really don't work so well; there are millions of studies on animal behaviour and on child development which show this.

I agree Martha Quest, simply because we're only human and you have to be honest with your child about the porblems this causes when it going on for a long time. I doubt it makes a difference either way, getting annoyed or not getting annoyed, my DD is in a world of her own about this issue but I simply can't suppress my own frustration about something so horrendous as months and months of repetitive soiling/ tantrums about soiling. Punishing I don't think helps, but I'm not an angel, and any more than I could prevent showing frustration/anger about constant biting or shouting or anything else anti-social, I get angry about this. It is so depressing to learn it can go on for years. Yet another thing they don't tell you about having children.

two things:

My theory (untested) on why children hide to poo is because back in the distant past one was vulnerable when eliminating, you can't run when you are pooing so one had to hide from predators. It's not defiance at all but a natural behavioural remnant from when we lived in caves

Preschool CANNOT refuse to accept children who are not potty trained; it's against the law

Been following this as DD (2.7) nailed the wees very quickly but is very inconsistent despite major rewards at doing the poos. And to make matters worse they're fairly squishy ones... Any ideas on teaching them what the signs of needing a poo are? Tummy cramps and needing to push are hard to verbalise in a way that my DD understands....

I have occasionally told off ds (2.6) when he has very obviously weed on the floor deliberately (e.g. getting the potty out, taking down trousers and pants and then going on the floor right next to the potty while saying "I do it on purpose"!) so I think it's ok sometimes if you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it is on purpose.

Have you tried involving him as much as is feasible is the cleaning up process (without obviously direct contact with poo)? Make him fill a bucket to soak his pants/get the wipes/get the new trousers/put dirty clothes in linen basket. The inconvenience will make it less desirable to go in his pants, if it ends up taking up much more time than just going in the potty

Reading all this with interest - am new to this website. My daughter was potty trained at 2.3 years and everything was going brilliantly for 4 months - she'd tell us / carers she needed the loo, take herself off and do as much as she could by herself and then ask for help. Recently, in last two months or so, she seems to have completely lost the knack and is wetting and soiling her pants daily. We used a sticker chart first time round which worked to a degree. However, this time we're also faced with a blank refusal to go to the loo at all - she keeps saying she doesn't want to or doesn't like it. She seemingly doesn't care about being wet / dirty and although my husband keeps saying 'ignore it' I am getting increasingly frustrated as I know she can do it. He says it's about control. Whatever it's about I am utterly stumped and really don't know what to do. We do praise an enormous amount in the home, whether it's for the loo, or eating vegetables, or getting dressed, so she knows she's done something really good. But I am struggling not to vent my anger about this. Anyone else had this complete 'reversal' in behaviour?