3.5 year old making no progress - shelve for six months?

[orangeandpineapples]

I started to try to potty train my son just before his third birthday. We are now six months down the line and have made very little progress: numerous wet accidents and refuses to poo in the toilet or potty.

Obviously it’s a big worry but I can’t force him to do it and I’m in the position where it just isn’t sustainable. He doesn’t start school until September 25.

@Temporaryname158 he does have a potty but I’m not sure the difference this makes really. Perhaps you could explain.

I don’t have reasons why things don’t work, they just don’t. Ultimately until he verbalises or shows a need to go to the toilet OR takes himself independently he isn’t going to get there. I don’t know what’s going on.

I didn’t say he has chocolate all the time. He eats very well actually but if he knows there are chocolate buttons in the house he will keep whining for them without seeming to understand they are a reward. In any case he wees when you take him to the toilet, that’s fine, but it’s the self initiation we’re lacking.

I probably will plod on but I do worry I’m doing more harm than good as I’m starting to get really frustrated with the whole process.

Would he understand a star chart or something visual? Star for every poo in potty/toilet?

Def get him hacked for constipation op. Mine was older but had other stuff going on so no one pushed for an explanation. Whe. I spoke to ERIC. I said it can't be constipation, he poos daily. It was. And once it was sorted, he toilet trained really quickly

You don't like him walking around naked at home? That speaks absolute volumes. You likely put him in pants way too early so he is now used to wet pants and doesn't care. Also the idea that them asking to go themselves is readiness is an absolute myth spurned out by disposable nappy companies. Before disposable nappies, 2 year olds didn't ask to go, there weren't signs of readiness. It is the parents job to teach them that first. Two of mine were pooing on the potty by 18 months on demand. So that clearly wasn't them taking the lead, it was me seeing they needed to go and holding them over the potty or toilet. Wees quickly followed naturally, though we didn't try to lose nappies for wees until 2. But it meant that they could be held over a potty before leaving the house, long journeys etc which saved them a lot of discomfort waiting for nappy changes. All of my kids have SEN too. But I liked them to be nappy free as much as possible when they were at home and it's easy to see the signs that way and do it for them, long before they are at the point of being able to put all the steps together by themselves.

@orangeandpineapples the difference a potty makes is it is proportional to their size, at their level and if one is in the room with them it’s a visual reminder as well as easily accessible.

some children are scared of large toilets so don’t want to use them and/or they don’t have the independence to use it without your assistance as they can’t climb up.

children don’t start potty training by suddenly independently going themselves. If that’s what you are waiting for, it won’t happen by itself usually. You have to do just as you are doing, keep taking them regularly.

i never said at any time you fed him chocolate all the time or that he had a poor diet. I pointed out he’s asking you for chocolate so obviously likes it. Don’t allow it at any other time than for successful wees and poos, even if you have had to take him. Soon the message will get through but it must be consistent and the potty must be available at all times when at home and out for you to take him to

@Temporaryname158 the thing is we are six months down the line. The potty kept being kicked, put on his head () and generally messed about with so I put it away as he was happy using the toilet.

@User284732 I’m not keen on pee and poo all over the floor, funnily enough, no! I don’t know anyone else who has their child naked from the waist down for months. I don’t actually know anyone who used that method in real life and it isn’t the only way. It isn’t much good if you can’t move very fast or if you have a house with numerous hidey holes (or both.)

i am not sure. I’ll probably go back to nappies for a bit as honestly the laundry just isn’t sustainable.

children don’t start potty training by suddenly independently going themselves. If that’s what you are waiting for, it won’t happen by itself usually. You have to do just as you are doing, keep taking them regularly.

That's not true, actually. A lot of children do wake up one day and decide they are over nappies. This happened with my second youngest - she was 3.3

Yes they do … although I am not sure DS ever will, I have visions of him doing his A levels in nappies! Which of course won’t happen so at some point I guess he’d decide no more nappies, just WHEN!?

I do feel very alone with it, no one else I know has had these problems.

I think you need a Drs visit. DD was trained at 2, but massively regressed at nearly 4 and was having tonnes of wee accidents.

Turns out she had a combination of constipation, recurrent UTIs an overactive bladder. She genuinely couldn’t hold it in, but didn’t have the understanding (and was embarrassed) so it was hard to work that out.

Both conditions were treated, and she was fine again. I recognise some of what you’re saying, without the interim step of being trained first.

We had a couple of fruitless visits to GPs before a private urologist sorted her out.

What treatment did you have? It feels so rubbish. There’s no way I can keep on top of the wees with the current situation.

You mentioned behaviour problems, how is his behaviour? Apart from the potty training, is it age-appropriate? 3 year olds are fairly bananas! Do nursery report concerns around his behaviour?

@orangeandpineapples disimpaction for the constipation, antibiotics for the Utis and Oxybutinin for the overactive bladder. it wasn’t fun, but it did work.

It deff sounds like there’s something else going on, whether it’s medical or behavioural. I really would get proper help.

@ProfessorPeppy i don’t know 😩 I think it’s age appropriate but I’m not sure how much comfort that is. I had a hard day yesterday and I know when I’m tired I can make things more dramatic than they are, not on purpose but just sort of woe is me. But here are my problems.

My main concerns are lack of response - I will say something to him and often it’s just blank wall, no response at all, no sign he’s heard. (And he has, as can easily be proved by ‘shall we get an ice cream / oh dear ds doesn’t want to come to the park’.)

So he’ll ignore me or walk off when I’m mid sentence. If he’s somewhere he can’t escape he will often change the subject to something absolutely random.

I also get a lot of behaviour that’s just so baffling - he emptied a load of drawers of toys onto the lawn earlier. We’ve got so many toys that don’t work or I need to throw out as parts are missing. I know people will say I should make him clear up but then this perpetuates the problem as bits end up everywhere and getting him to tidy up just takes so bloody long and I have a baby climbing over me … just so defiant sometimes. When I try to type it out it’s probably nothing that bad but honestly some days all I feel like I do is argue. Yesterday at the park he wanted to go on some equipment way way too old for him and wouldn’t stop running off to it then crying then come back to me and I try to ‘look DS, you could go on this …’ runs off mid sentence back to the equipment which apparently is for children aged 8-13: I mean, if he was six I’d say yes but 3, really? Plus it was in hot sun with no shade. But he won’t stop trying to go on it. Eventually I got through to him (this is unusual!) pointed out it’s a brilliant park, so many fun things to do and he’s not enjoying any of them as he’s insistent on this one piece of equipment.

Then I get the grey rock when I suggest going to the petting zoo at the park. ‘Would you like to see some animals?’ No response, keeps running off. Won’t eat lunch, won’t have a drink. Then when leaving the park an unholy tantrum kicks off because he wanted to wash his hands (he’d already done so) and I know that was tiredness, hunger, too hot. But it just gets so so wearing.

What have nursery said?

He does sound like he’s not processing instructions/not sensing when he’s hungry/fixating on stuff. The problem is, it could just be extreme toddler-ish behaviour rather than symptomatic of ND behaviours. Not knowing when he needs the toilet could be poor interoception, which is indicative of neurodivergence (ASD/ADHD/dyspraxia etc.).

No issues reported from nursery but I do think there’s a tendency towards ‘he’s had a GREAT day!’

Realistically if there is any neurodivergence it won’t be diagnosed for a long time so for the moment I just have to manage. With regard to this issue I am very torn. On the one hand it’s pointless putting him in pants only to have him poo and wee in them - but he has made some progress and I’m worried about that going. My washing load can’t take it though.

My son is very much in his own world sometimes and often doesn't reply at 3 if he is thinking of something else. He also empties things out and dismantles things at home often. I think this is quite normal, tbh - it's a safe space and he is a dreamy kid. He is doing well at nursery, learning to count, letters etc. and is capable of functioning as part of a group - eating at set times, joining in etc. is your son following the crowd at nursery? I suspect so, as you generally get told if they are causing issues for other kids or staff. I think that your expectations of a child of this age might be too high.

I genuinely did the nappy off thing - first week was lots of peeing and pooing (but he got most wees poos within a few days of naked all day), then second week we were on summer holiday and I continued it on the holiday. Then done. I know that you don't want to do it that way, but you can't say it won't work before you've tried it. If you have a garden, then you are in the ideal time to do a weekend of nakedness.

Do you think it could be baby related as yours is now crawling and needing more?

Possibly and like an above poster rightly points out expectations are probably too high. I just get stressed when he doesn’t seem to listen or do as I ask which doesn’t sound too terrible written down but is a bit exhausting after a full day of it!

I didn't mean to sound critical btw, OP. When you have baby it is really easy to see the older child as quite old, whereas they are still a baby themselves really, emotionally.

It wasn’t critical at all, it was really helpful. He’s still in pants, he did have an accident today but he told me and I praised him lots for letting me know as I do think that’s half the battle. It’s been hot and my little one isn’t well so had me a bit frustrated but I do think we’re best persevering even though my washing machine really isn’t thanking me!

Long post:
TLDR- could be poor introception related. This can be a sign of ND (though not always). Try a different approach to motivation - ie waaaay more special than chocolate, and see what happens.

It took us nearly 2 years to fully crack potty training.
i know that sounds really depressing - it was but only when I compared him to my friends kids. When I just accepted him for who he was it was just “one of those things” and we tried to celebrate the victories.

poos were first, I can’t really remember at what point he started only doing poops in the toilet with a little seat, but this was more consistent earlier than the wees, which truly we only cracked not long before his 4th Birthday. But we have now done it.

my primary tip is to have lots of cheap clothes/pants and a great washing machine. Wash with the correct amount of soap powder - very few people in the UK seem to - I learned about this when we decided to do cloth nappies.

During the potty training period I realised it’s very probable that our son is ND. It runs in our family, and he exhibits some behaviours that are quite typical. However these behaviours would be missed by many because he is also extremely intelligent and has been very articulate from an early age, so I didn’t see it at first. He is awaiting diagnosis.
However the more I read the more I came to understand that his slow progress with toilet training was likely part of ND, specifically having relatively poor introception compared to NT kids. He couldn’t seem to feel that he needed the toilet, or that he had wet himself when doing something he was absorbed in - and he gets hyper focused so it was happening a LOT - sometimes more than 6 times a day.

he also exhibited some of the behaviours you describe such as not appearing interested in what you have to say, refusing to tidy toys (can be a sign of oppositional defiance which is a common ND trait), dumping toys, being “willful” etc.

not having a diagnosis hasn’t prevented me from parenting him using techniques usually aimed at ND kids. If you’re not already reading about these techniques they might be worth glancing over even if you don’t think your child is ND - in my view they aren’t “just” for ND kids. Many are pretty common sense but different to how I was raised so seeing them written down helped hugely.

specifically on potty training I finally realised that we were going to have to bring out the “big guns”. My son has a couple of special interests. I promised him something to do with his interest if we could manage all wees in toilet for a day, same following day, then had to go two days for something better. Then 3, then the weekend, and then it was pretty much done. The rewards weren’t chocolate but very cheap toys, but ones he was really coveting and motivated by. I couldn’t believe how well it worked!
We haven’t looked back since I did this.

it does get better eventually! Don’t give up hope, and if possible try not to compare him to other children.

Pick a few days you don’t have anything on. Each time he has an accident hand in the wipes, simple instructions of how to clean himself and get changed. If he refuses say ‘oh that’s a shame we were going to go to x, y and z’ no tv/tablet on until he’s done it then big fuss and you can go out or watch tv.

I would keep going, it would be a huge step back to put him in nappies now. It's normal for young children to have accidents, some more than others

Mine was late to train OP and then cracked it quite quickly so don't despair. I used an idea I got from another poster here which was the 'well done box', a shoebox which I filled with little wrapped up presents - top trumps, hot wheels etc. Everytime he used the potty he could choose something from the box. It really motivated him as before that he just wasn't interested.

I have no advice but just wanted to say my daughter is 3.5 and not toilet trained yet either. My son (now 7) trained around 3.5 but my daughter couldn't care less about sitting in a wet or dirty nappy 😭