NOV 09 - once the lights are out and the last baby has arrived safe and fine, see you here on cloud nine!

[Broodzilla]

I've just realized we're now under the "being a parent" header. I've got stage freight!

I forgot to say morning all, and hope had a good night.

We are off to the beach at some point this morning. YEY!

I was just sitting in bed feeding Reuben, thinking how I feel all sweaty and smelly, and wondered if this is a normal thing, if its just my sense of smell etc, or if I am really more pongy. I have noticed it the last couple of days even though I have showered and yesterday evening I had a nice long soak in the bath before showering and scrubbing properly.

Then, DH just walked into the bedroom and opened the window 'is that ok? its not too cold, its just its a bit stuffy in here'. 'what does it smell of?' 'like you have have been in bed too long hunny' , no seriously we probably have some dirty clothe to remove or something'.

Which means I do actuallt smell.

Anyone else? I have a vague recollection this happened last time to you know...

Toby is four weeks today! Yeah!

Can I ask whether anyone else is finding a pattern emerging with their babies daytime sleep? Toby will have a very short nap in the am, or possibly two cat naps - one in the basket / pushchair on a week day and one in my arms, then generally he'll have a long one over lunch at home - 2 1/2 hours sometimes, then another long one 3pm-5pmish either in basket / carseat / pushchiar then a short nap in the sling in the evening. He's done this for a week now. But then I find with babies you think 'oooh a pattern, that's good' then they do something totally different!

Right, Lukas is asleep on the nursing pillow in my lap again so I'm stuck on the couch. (What a shame...)

Thought I'd share what I found during my co-sleeping research yesterday if you're interested.

(I must disclaimer it all by saying that a) I'm obviously biased as the whole point of the exercise was to lessen the guilt as I've found myself bedsharing with Lukas b) even those that advocate bedsharing will not do so officially as there are too many variables to be able to do any kind of blanket recommendation and c) I'm sleep deprived so please excuse spelling and lack of references. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Btw, co-sleeping usually means "within arms reach but not necessarily on the same surface" so not necessarily bed-sharing (but in reality, most cultures apart from our practice bedsharing).

Also, I may not completely agree with all of this, but thought it was interesting none the less...

So - although at the moment, the official line from healthcare professionals and governments seem to be "never sleep with your baby" it seems that it's a slightly strange recommendationin light of the fact that it's by no means an inherently dangerous practice...

• All mammals nest-share with their offspring. We're closest to primates, and human babies are actually born with only 25% of their brain capacity and are therefore relying on their mothers in a way that no other primate offspring do. When mammal-mamas leave the nest (they have to, in order to find food) their babies will not cry or poo until the mama returns as the noise and smell would potentially attract predators. Our babies cry and poo when left alone, which indicates that they're biologically programmed to be close to their caretaker at all times.

• There are biological advantages to co-sleeping: the baby's breathing and heart rate is more regular, the baby is able to maintain a steady core temperature and the baby spends less time in a deep sleep (deep sleep is not so good for babies as they have regular pauses in breathing and need to wake themselves up to breathe). Co-sleeping increases milk supply. Babies also feed more often, which is a good thing as this helps their immature immune system. Funnily enough, although co-sleeping babies feed nearly twice as often as those that sleep on their own, overall co-sleeping babies and mamas spend more time asleep through the night. In fact, it seems that co-sleeping is the only BIOLOGICALLY appropriate sleeping arrangement. The Western world has decided that it is not a socially acceptable arrangement though...

• There are psychological advantages to co-sleeping: co-sleeping babies cry less at night AND in the day. Several studies show that co-sleeping babies grow into more confident and independent toddlers and teenagers. (Cultures where co-sleeping is the norm do not have the "terrible twos" phenomenon.)

• Countries with the highest rates of co-sleeping have the lowest rates of SIDS. In many Asian countries, SIDS is virtually unheard of. In Japan, where co-sleeping rates are on the up, SIDS rates are on the way down.

• Studies which have found co-sleeping to be dangerous make no distinction between different forms of co-sleeping (ie intentional and regular vs accidental or occasional) so a sober, well, breastfeeding mother who CHOOSES to co-sleep is included in the same group as a drunk bottlefeeding mother who falls asleep on the sofa with the baby.

(I want to add that the reason this may come across as breast=good bottle=bad is that mamas who breastfeed sleep a lighter sleep and also due to circumstances sleep in a safer position for the baby.)

Finally, some stats:

Babies who sleep independently will on average sleep continuously for:
6.5 hours @ 2 months
8 hours @ 4 months
8+ hours over 4 months

Babies who co-sleep will on average sleep continuously for:
5 hours at 2 months and only reach 5+ hours once they're over 20 months.

So, there it is.

Make of that what you will.

Lukas and I will carry on as we were, although I do hope that DH will move in with us in the very near future, and if/when he does, then Lukas will sleep in the crib that is already attached to my side of the bed.

(Oh, and if any of you actually have a DP/DH in bed with you - NEVER have the baby between you and them. The mama needs to be between the baby and whoever else is in the same bed.)

Over and out...

One more thing:
Babies who co-sleep will feed on average every 90 minutes (as opposed to babies who sleep on their own will feed on average after double that time) BUT this also coincides with the lenght of the average adult sleep cycle, so mama would be awake (or more aware) every 90 minutes anyway.

Neither mama or baby need to be fully awake for the feeding (although in the night I suddenly went I'm guessing this definitely means sleeping with your boobs out at all times).

And, strangely, with all this waking, co-sleeping mamas reportedly get more sleep and feel more rested than those who do not.

Pav oooh yes, the whiffyness... must be the hormones. Doesn't seem to bother little Lukas though, even though he has a good sniff. It does get better though, the first few nights/weeks (I really can't remember... it all sort of floats into one, but must definitely have been well into week 3 or something) I used to wake up SOAKED in sweat. Ridiculous, but it's gone now. There is hope.

Becky Yes, Lukas too. He gets up between 8-9AM and is back asleep by 10AM every morning. Usually sleeps until 1ish (with a poo-and-change-and-feed break noonish). Some days he's then awake for a couple of hours, sometimes longer. His PM nap seems shorter, some days just an hour. He seems to want to be in bed by 8PM at the latest. (I just need to get out of the habit of going to bed when he does in order to have some sense of still being an adult...)

Hi all

Internet was down this morning - felt like I'd had my arm chopped off!!

Whiffyness is definitely a side effect, I had the same thing although feel as though I've been clean now for about 2 weeks so guess it lasted about 2 weeks. Night sweats also seemed to last about 3 weeks, am so glad to see the back of those!

We definitely have some sort of pattern here that involves a mini nap in the morning of about an hour, then a bigger nap around lunchtime of 2 or 3 hours and then an afternoon nap. I fully expect that to all change now that I've cottoned on to what it is!

Had a great night last night. He always wakes briefly at 3am when I put his dummy in as I know he can go to 4am. Did that last night and he slept until 5:30am!!! Am trying not to get my hopes up that it will be repeated.
He was very unsettled last night though and seemed to feed hourly from about 4pm - 9pm.

Brood fascinating info you've found. Ioan will go to sleep in his bed at 10 and again at 4 after the feeds, but wakes around 7 and then comes into bed with me for a cuddle and a doze. I try to do the morning feed lying down then so I get just a little more rest. It's rapidly becoming one of my favourite times of day, just me and my son snuggling together - bliss.

Completely agree with what you've said re the dh's - mine knew last night that I wouldn't want him to go out, but still asked me anyway. Then asked if I was still p'd off when he came home - if you knew I'd be annoyed then why ask?! Do what you're going to do and face the music like a man!!

Still, we've spoken about it all now and things are better today - hooray!

afternoon all.

PC is still down, am using DPs at the moment, bouncing Bryn in my lap by twitching my leg. ME spasums have their advantages

Am getting very stressed out at home - the next time my mother tries to give me advce / tell me not to breast feed in public / how to hold my own son I might well slap her

Bryn is a month old already, and its crazy. The health visitor is amazed at how strong he is - has been holding his head up since a week old and can occassionally turn himself over. He's started going on to his side during the night, and seems happier that way. I do turn him back, but get glared at!! He's still not over this bug (in fact he's just thrown up over my leg, yummy...) but managed to put a pound on in the week he was relly sick so no one is worried. Well, apart from me!

Am feeling a little down today, mainly through lack of sleep and ME I imagine. But someone else please tell me that they have moments where they miss their old life, and that it doesn't make me a bad mother? I love my little boy to pieces, and I'm so glad he's here - he's by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. Which makes it even more rediculous that sometimes for the odd moment I just sigh and wonder what on earth I'm doing.

His hair is starting to go lighter, but his eyes have stayed the dark bright blue they were at birth for now.

Hope you're all well and looking forward to Christmas

ErikaMaye it is totally normally to miss your old life. Everyone does. Even those with other DCs, like me. I miss being able to lie in on a Saturday, I miss not clock-watching all the time, I miss staying up late, I miss having my bedroom not with a sleeping child in it, I miss just messing about doing nothing. There's lots I miss. But those things will come back.

We've just got our tree and put it up. It looks lovely and sparkly and smells of pine and Christmas

...yes to missing old life. i also must admit to often being bored to tears...crayolas just don't cut it for hours on end anymore. But that'll all get better soon.

Read my fabulous sleep book, which says babies are most fussy and difficuly week 5-6, but after that will start to fall into night-day pattern.
Toddlers will get better 4 mths after baby arrives, as baby's sleep and thus mommy's and toddler's life will be more predictable.

let's cross our toes, ey?

Oh crumbs we're just entering week 5 and Christmas is week 6! I think you're right though, those are the most difficult weeks in terms of sleep as they lose that newborn inate ability to just doze off.

Evening all

Hard to believe but my little bundle of joy arrived almost 2 weeks ago on 29th November... I have only just managed to catch up on the postnatal thread and can now post my birth story! It is a bit long, sorry!

I'd been out on the afternoon of Friday 27th for lunch and a wander around the shops and had a nap on the couch when I get home late afternoon. DP arrived home from work around 5 and woke me up and I told him I thought I'd had a couple of contractions. His response... "We are still going to the cinema, aren't we?"

We did go to the cinema, as I'd been reading for weeks about false starts and twinges and had experienced none of these symptoms myself so assumed this was the start of my twinges which could go on for weeks.

So New Moon at 7:30... after around half an hour I'd been squeezing DP's hand whenever I had contractions and asked him how far apart they were. He whispered back "around 10 minutes" and I burst into tears, I think the reality was hitting me that I was in labour. He whispered "Do you want to go home?" but I didn't see any point so we stayed to watch the film, which I found a bit disappointing but I wouldn't place much value on my opinion as I was slightly distracted!

Got home around 11pm and took paracetamol and had a bath. We then tried to sleep but there was no way I was sleeping through contractions, I don't know how anybody could! Around 1am I put my tens machine on after realising I had no hope of sleeping. Around 3am we got up and started timing the contractions.

I had a bit of a show but as it had pink blood and brown blood in it I was a bit worried the brown stuff might be meconium waters so phoned the hospital. They advised as there wasn't much volume it would still be my show and to phone back in a couple of hours.

Around 5am my contractions were 3 minutes apart but whenever I phoned the hospital they would fade away and didn't seem too bad on the phone, or as close together as I believed them to be.

Eventually around 8am we left to go to the hospital after 3 hours of contractions being 3/4 minutes apart. Disappointingly when we got to the hospital my contractions really slowed. I was examined and was only 1cm dilated!! I was so annoyed, I had been determined all through pregnancy not to be the person who arrived at the hospital ridiculously early. I thought the journey had slowed down my contractions so was reluctant to get in the car to go home and have to travel back later in the day. We decided to stay at the hospital and stay as mobile as possible.

Later in the afternoon a midwife asked how I was doing. I answered that my contractions were definitely stronger but not closer together, around 5/6 minutes apart. Her response was "That won't be dilating your cervix, you should have went home this morning". As I'd already used up my paracetamol allowance for the 24hr period I had no pain relief left and asked to be examined shortly after. Huge relief to report that I was 3/4cm by this point, 6pm.

Around 9pm DP had to leave as we were still on the labour ward. I was reluctant to have any diamorphine or pethidine as I'd heard they could slow everything down but the prospect of being alone, having had no pain relief since 4pm and no sleep in 36 hours got a bit too much for me. At 9:30 the midwife examined me again, 4/5cm. She said this would be far enough along for the labour suite and checked if they would take me, which would allow me to have gas & air. The labour suite wanted me to stay put on the ward as they were concerned that my contractions STILL weren't close enough together, still around 5minutes apart. I asked for the diamorphine then as I was exhausted and needed some sleep.

As much as I had wanted to avoid the diamorphine, looking back it was the right choice for me as it allowed me to relax. I think I had almost been fighting against the contractions and found it very difficult to use the relaxation techniques we'd been taught. I think the diamorphine allowed my body to do what it had been trying to do for over 24 hours.

Had just under 2 hours dozing and woke up with some strong contractions just after 11pm and my waters breaking. Midwife said I wouldn't be on the ward much longer and to phone DP who had only just got to sleep but came back to the hospital straight away.

The midwife was supposed to do another examination but they were too short staffed to do so for 45 minutes until another midwife returned to the ward. By this point, they knew I was well into established labour and sent me straight to the labour suite without checking. On arrival at the labour suite, I was 8/9 cm and had access to the magical gas & air!!

After reaching 10cm dilated, they wanted to leave me an hour before I could push... after the alloted hour was up my contractions slowed again!! After an hour of pushing we weren't getting anywhere and my contractions were still erratic. Talk of registrar and intervention had me panicking slightly but eventually I was given a hormone drip to speed up my contractions and this allowed us to make progress. Our little boy arrived, after an episiotomy, at 4:32 on his due date pf 29th after over 2 hours of pushing. In between pushing, my eyes were rolling in my head I was sooooo tired! But what an amazing experience. I'm still amazed when I think over the whole event again. I was so disappointed that my contractions had let me down... firstly by stopping when I arrived at the hospital, secondly by not getting any closer together through the course of the day in the hospital and thirdly by slowing down when I could eventually start pushing. However, when the midwife handed me over to the nightshift midwife on the postnatal ward and related my story, the nightshift midwife was quite impressed i was 8/9cm before going to the labour suite and had pushed for over 2 hours so I started to feel a bit more positive about the whole experience and now I still can't believe I did it!

My DP was amazing, he was so impressed with my efforts in labour and was totally blown away. He and the midwife were holding my legs while I was pushing so he had a pretty good view of the whole thing but I found this really helpful as he could tell me exactly what progress I was making and could be very encouraging.

So Ethan will be 2 weeks old tomorrow and I absolutely love being a mum! Now that I've got used to the sleep deprivation anyway. I'm pleased to learn from our postnatal thread that everyone is having to feed their babies regularly and I'm not the only mum doing three hourly feeds or less, and that others have had problems with DP/DHs not pulling their weight at home. I think my DP feels a little helpless as I'm feeding so much but we're trying to communicate better so he knows what he can do to help around the house, even if it's not a baby task.

So a few questions for you mummies who have been doing this a bit longer than me...

I am using disposables until Ethan reaches 10lbs then we'll move into our reusables. I've had pampers so far but find that they leak a fair bit... can anyone recommend a good disposable or are leakages to be expected at this stage?

Is 2 wks too early to try to start getting into a routine? At the moment Ethan goes to bed whenever I go but I am keen to establish a bedtime routine whenever I can, just not sure when is a good time to start.

Breastfeeding in public... I'm happy to feed in a cafe or something when I have company with me but I'm worried about having to feed when I'm out on my own. What are other people's approaches to this - are you expressing or just braving it out??

I think that's all, and I promise to be a better mumsnetter now that I'm up to date on the postnatal thread. As far as I know we're waiting on news from Grace and Sass and that will be all our November babies here. Quite a milestone!

Explains why this week is diffiult then. Any suggestions as to how to get him back into his own bed? Or should I just go with it for now? He's incredably grouchy and clingy at the moment. Sleeping in my lap currently.

Sorry Claired crossed posts - congrats Am just braving the breast feeding. No one (except my mother ) has said anything about it.

Congrats Claire! Have always had places to duck into for bf, don't brave public exposure as people a bit tight on it tbph.

Erika, book only says is really difficult this week as they become more social, brain makes develpmtl jump and they don't want to sleep, and to be consistent in way of putting baby to sleep- either always soothe and put down (awake or not) or always soothe and hold till in deep sleep. Not to mix up, as is more difficult for babies ergo more crying and less sleep. Is okay to let them sleep in car seat/swing/sling but not to move after they fall asleep as would be poor-quality sleep. Also says is way too early to let them cry it out, must soothe to sleep. And to start bedtime routine but can be very short. If baby too tired will make chemicals that allow it to stay awake by going into overdrive, which will then lead to poor night sleep, so to make sure they don't stay awake for more than max of 1-2 hrs durig the day, which is all they can handle right now.

Hi all!

broodzilla thanks for the info on co-sleeping, very interesting points and has made me feel better about doing it!

Pav am with you on the pongyness! have noticed the past few mornings that the old armpits are a bit whiffy, nice!

comma thats interesting what you say about the 4 month thing as my friend who's ds is the same age as mine (2) behavior greatly improved once her baby was 4 months! only another 3 months of hell to go then

erika It's very normal to miss your old life but things will get easier in time and your old life will slowly return as Bryn gets older. Then you'll have another one and you'll think, oh no what have i done! only joking

scarlotti my sympathies, dh is off on a jolly on Tuesday night. I told him that i'm really struggling at the moment and need him here but he says he has got to go

Got our Christmas tree today and ds is so excited! haven't got round to decorating it yet though, will do tomorrow. Right better go and put ds to bed, also typing one handed as Millie asleep on me and I feel like my arm is about to drop off! Oh before i go, my friend told me that when your baby is 6 weeks you get a dip in hormones and that can make you feel tearful and emotional. That explains a lot then as ive felt bad the last few days and dd is 6 weeks tomorrow!

Hope everyone is ok and having a nice weekend. Strictly tonight and a chinese and glass of wine, woo hoo!

I definately do Erika, the freedom to do what you want when you want. but the babies make up for it. when I have a bad day cuddling the littlens always makes me feel better.

yes hormones- esme's hair falling out and acne must mean that mom's estrogen in her goes down, so it must be going down in me too- just waiitng for my hair to go...also makes you crave chocolate, as estrogen can mimick serotonin which makes you happy, and chocki can do the same. Sigh Also have pimples now so goes with theory. Pimply, hair loose, fat while craving chocolate- how not to be teary?

Thanks for that Comma.

Glad to hear its not just me missng things... Nipples are sore again because he's still being sick a lot, so feeding so much. Also means he's more tired, so then struggles to sleep...

Also, meant to add tigger hope henry is ok and they find out what is wrong soon.

fruit really feel for you, you must be exausted. Hope dh makes it up to you when he gets back with several lie-ins at the least!

claire great birth story! You seemed to have the exact same thing as me with the pain relief - it was the pethidine for me that made me relax enough to get into active labour.

erika I miss life pre-Ioan where I could go out without a military operation of expressing etc. I also miss not having had my 20's child free (DD is 15) ... but I wouldn't change any of it for the world. DD's friends come over now for her parties and we're the cool parents as we're so much younger than theirs DD and I had a blast when I was at Uni - being younger meant it was easier to keep up with her!!
Now I love my little pretzel and having snuggles. Looking at my family just makes me immensely proud of what I've done, the DC's are a part of me and I've helped shape the wonderful people they are

Well, Ioan is 5 weeks tomorrow and has been awake more today than ever before! He hasn't dropped off as easily as other times so there must be something in that book. Have noticed over the last day or two that I've had to remember the shushing and rocking stuff for sleep ... even ended up taking a walk to the shops today to get him to drop into deep sleep!!!

Day 3 has passed without DH and not too much hassle from both DS's! DH is back tomorrow and I can't wait. When he arrives I will be going to bed at the earliest chance.

I agree the 5-6 weeks are difficult as I've noticed DS being very fussy this week and he is 6 weeks today. But I'm hoping for a break through as he's been very chilled today. The last few nights have been a struggle with the constant feeding. I have given him Aptimil rather than bf for the 12pm feed to get him to sleep longer. I've given it 2 nights and he's woken 1.5 hrs later very grouchy and windy. He had a very runny tummy this morning (i've never seen anything like it!)and I think the Aptimil doesn't agree. So I bought SMA Gold and a Avent colic bottle and will give that a go tonight. He is also feeding less in the day and my boobs have been aching like hell. I've had to express twice today to ease the discomfort. Does anyone else find wearing a seat belt hurts their boobs?

Erika When I had DS1 I really missed my old life. I was the first out of my group of friends to have a baby and they were going out drinking whilst I was home feeding in the night. I did feel a tinge of envy at times. As DS1 was getting older and sleeping well, I started to go out more with DH or friends and life felt easier. I had the best of both worlds. I've now left it 4 years and starting all over again with this little one.

I haven't braved public bf yet. I've not ventured out too far. I know where the nursing room is in Mothercare and M&S so I nip in and feed him there. I find choosing what clothes to wear a bit stressful. I'm forever dressing around bf.

Well done clared21 No routine established as such. He has established his own routine and it works ok. I ensure I have a pattern of an evening, bathing or topping and tailing, change into babygro, feed and settle for the evening.

I can't seem to catch up with everyone. Hope you are all having a nice evening.

I think my emotions are all over the place.. I just cried watching Joe singing on X Factor.

Friut I know what you mean about dressing!! Its driving me rather crazy. Combining suitable for feeding clothes with ones that actually fit is a daily chore. Think I'll stick with pjs

Don't get me started on clothes!
I have 3 strappy vest tops from new look which I rotate and a choice of about 4 tops to go over them - that way only a small bit of me freezes when I feed. I get sicked on pretty much daily though so they only last a day before needing washed

Think I might go to H&M and treat myself to a nursing top.