April 2009 - Chapter 6 - The one where Nutty reappears and the babies eat FOOD!

[Swaliswan]

I hope that this will do you all as the last thread ran out.

Let the fun and chocolate eating commence...

OK frekkles, listen here - I think the lady on the LLL helpline should be taken out and given a stern talking to. She's made you feel rubbish about yourself and for no real reason, IMVHO.

Thumbsucking is not necessarily a sign of hunger - in fact babies who are hungry will not be satisfied with a thumb for long! How old is H now, 5 months ish? Plenty of babies are only feeding once a night at this stage and gaining just fine. H was gaining beautifully up until now, right?

And as for going back to work, don't let anyone make you feel guilty about it. Plenty of people go back to work at this stage, or earlier, and their milk supply is fine. There's no reason to think your supply is to blame, if H isn't feeding much and having diarrhoea then that would be a perfectly reasonable reason to lose weight.

It sounds like H has a tummy bug to me, in which case little and often is probably the way forward. Keep offering, it'll be comforting for him even if he isn't eating much, but DON'T feel bad about your supply, or going back to work, or anything like that. That's an order

Oh, Frekkles {{{}}} Not feeling coherent enough to be much help, but she sounds like an unhelpful judgy-pants! I have to say, I'm a big fan of the co-sleeping. Tiny, skinny Hugo can have as many feeds as he likes, and I get a reasonable night's sleep. Is v quiet here atm, so may be worth posting on the bf board too. Thinking of you and H

Oh Frekkles,
I'm not surprised you're in a tizz.

If he has a tummy bug, surely that could explain his fussy feeding and his weight.

With all due respect, I am not entirely sure about what the LLL lady said. I don't see how she can be so adamant that he 'should' be feeding every three hours through the night at his age. Some babies sleep right through at 4 or 5 months.
And I am very doubtful about the thumbsucking-meaning-he-needs-to-nurse-more analysis. If we all shoved a boob in our baby's mouth every time they sucked their thumb, some of us would do little else.

What you have been doing (encouraging him to sleep better, and also to allow you to do the same) is NOT selfish, because if neither of you sleeps well you'll both be cross and grumpy. Nor can it have caused the stinky green nappies. You haven't made him ill, the green poo is a sign that something else is making him ill, and that is affecting his feeding and his weight.

I'd suggest you post in breast & bottle feeding, and hopefully tiktok or someone equally experienced and helpful will give you some advice.

Have just read the replies from those who type faster than me, and I see we all agree.

Sod the 'due respect', I think your LLL lady was talking a lot of rubbish (have just deleted several more scatological terms). Ignore her, do what seems to be working for you and wee H, and see what the test results are next week.

And just because it's a new thread, don't think you won't have to eat LOTS of chocolate for feeling so guilty.

Really Frekkles, the LLL lady is talking through her arse. This is what my LLL lady advised me.

1. Put sunglasses on when changing nappies because we fret far too much about their colour.
2. Do what is right for you regarding feeding.
3. It's great if they sleep through at 3 months but not all do. After 6 months they shouldn't need feeding at night.
4. If you pump a little bit every three hours at work your supply eventually maintains itself very nicely.

She was a lot less judgeypants than your LLL person IMO.

My personal experience of going back to work has been that it was a bit tricky working out a pumping regime, but now I feed Felix at about 7 and again at 745 before I leave, then pump at lunchtime which gives me about 6oz a boob, then pump again at 530 which gives me about 4oz a boob, then feed him again at 7 and 8 before he goes to sleep. We currently have a pleasantly generous oversupply in the fridge at the moment (pina colada anyone??)

Plus also Felix was quite grizzly for two weeks and suddenly today has settled down again and is his usual cheerful, placid self, so babies do go through phases. The others did this as well.

Also since when was it a crime for mummies to get sleep?? This is compulsory. If you don't look after yourself first and foremost, how can you look after a little person?

Honestly, all this protestant work ethic self-sacrifice crap ....

thank you all so much for that. you're all wise and kind.

I think the LLL lady was an avid follower of attachment parenting. Told me to only use a sling etc. People are so hard and fast in what they believe when it comes to parenting aren't they? Why are there so many different opinions? A few weeks ago when H was feeding 6 times a night and I was on my knees, the HV, my mum, my nct group were all "just ignore him! let him cry" It's like being pregnant all over again, too many wildly differing opinions and nowhere to go for definitive information.

I'm driving myself a bit mad really. Keep reading stuff about green nappies and worrying. My breast pump just broke aswell. bugger and arse. God knows what folk who's babies are really poorly feel. I'm so lucky really, for the grace of god go i and all that.

sigh

Frekkles, just follow your heart and do what you feel best. You know really what he needs. It's a spiritual thing, methinks.

Agree with the others. Izy feeds just once a night and believe me hes putting it on normally.

The only bit of everything thats been said that worried me is that you've been making yourself and him cry trying to get him to sleep. They're still so little so try and give yourself a break. I know other people think it makes bad habits but I actually think that its not bad habits but just the individual baby, but maybe feed him back to sleep if you have to. He doesn't understand that you need him to sleep so you can go to work so maybe try a balance between the two as being stressed about it can be almost as tiring as feeding him another time makes you.
On bad nights I sleep on the sofa with a blanket (cant sleep in bed as dh smokes) and have him lying so he can just feed when he wants to. That way I sleep and he eats.

and agree the poo does sound like a bug

I agree with everyone else

BaskingInTheLoveTiggaxx

hey frekkles i'm doing pretty much everything your lll said - i did it with ds1 as well. neither of them put on weight till i started shovelling in the fruit purees and baby rice.

in short, ms judgeypants is talking bolleaux, utter and total.

nb i didn't set out to be an attachment parent: i only do it this way to survive same as everyone else. my kids seem to be crazy babies

sorry about no caps - feeding as ever

bronze, may i ask why you and izy get the sofa while ol' smokey has the bed to himself?

seriously, i hate to say it but sofa co-sleeping is risky - if i were you i'd kick out dh.

MustStopMultiplyPostingMrsG

I find sofa sleeping less risky as I sleep lighter and no duvet which scares me too. I don't quite understand why it's more risky if its planned. I thought it was because people fall asleep on the sofa because they're so tired and thats whats dangeroud

DH needs his sleep, he often works long hours and drives as part of his job.

I concur (again) with everyone else. In the words of, I think, Annekin Skywalker's mother () "What does your heart tell you?" If he wants to feed to sleep, feed him to sleep, don't worry about all the people that think he should be sleeping through, and do this in whatever way gets you the most sleep too. And bad habits are only bad habits if they're inconvenient to us. Nothing 'bad' about wanting to be with Mummy, cuddle Mummy, be comforted by Mummy when they're upset.

I'm not sure if that is at all helpful?

I thought the risk with sofa sleeping was the risk of them rolling over against the cushion/ getting wodged?

"After 6 months they shouldn't need feeding at night" - shit, Boff, I'm going to be in trouble!

We've just had pancakes and maple syrup for breakfast! Om nom nom!

Gui - I was still feeding Ellen back to sleep just a few months before Holly came along.

i've nothing against attachment parenting atall, I totally agree with it. I breastfeed, i use cloth nappies, i use a sling rather than a pram. But I've tried co sleeping, and while I find it magical and enjoy it sometimes, i also find it a bit suffocating and scarey and also don't sleep very well so end up exhausted after a few nights. I also miss having my own space and space to be with my man.

Bronze, I agonised about letting H cry at night, and cried buckets myself while we were doing it. But I just couldn't keep up with him, and his night feeds just kept increasing until it was six times and rising (every ninety minutes) a night and felt almost constant . I was so tired I was hallucinating and fainting and on the occasions when I could sleep I was so stressed I couldn't and had insonmia. It felt as if H couldn't get back to sleep without nursing, as when I did feed him each time, he wouldn't be swallowing, just sucking and falling asleep.

So we decided to try and cut out every other feed so he was just feeding every 3 hours and try and teach him to fall asleep without a boob in his mouth. So the first time he woke in the night, dp cuddled him, made sure he was comfy, winded and dry, then put him back in his hammock and then sat and bounced the hammock whilst patting his chest and singing and shushing him. So he wasn't alone at any point and he wasn't uncomfy or in pain, we just wanted to teach him he just wasn't going to be fed everytime he woke. Then the next time he woke I fed him.

This worked out at him going to bed at 8 and being fed at 1am, 4am and 630am and being settled by DP at 1130, 230, 5ish . The first night he cried for 40 mins each time dp did this, and I cried too, feeling so guilty. But then the next night he only cried for less than a minute. This continued for a week or so, with a few blips for teething and wind and such. Now he is now back to sleeping from sleeping from 8pm till 4am like he used to before his 8 week jabs. At 4am he feeds for 30 mins, the settles back into his hammock, and then wakes again 6ish, when I bring him into bed with us and co sleep with him feeding loads till however late we can manage, maybe 830 or so.

I'm sure it'll change again, but for the last week i feel as if I'm a bit more normal again and finally feel a bit more rested. But I can't get over the fact that it correlates with his weight loss and green nappies :-( . I so hope it's a tummy bug and not my fault.

My sister just called the LLL the breast feeding gestapo!

Sorry Frekkles, I hadn't read your post. Just scanning as I have to go out soon but Holly has had slightly greenish nappies this past week. I put it down to her teething as she is otherwise fine. Is H teething? That could explain the fussing at the breast too if he is uncomfortable?

just to clarify, i meant the last week he hasn't woken up atall from 8pm till atleast 4am.

and he's so impressed with his thumb that even the last two days when he's been feeding every hour, he's trying to squeeze his thumb in there with my nipple!

maybe puzzle.who knows? there's far too many explanations that i can find. although H's nappies are completely liquid and frothy and completely green and smell of mouldy yoghurt

Oh no, hers are just tinged.

I notice you mention thumb-sucking. Holls is a thumb-sucker and with her it is in no way an indication of hunger. I'm certain you can make a better judgement call on that than a person at the end of the phone line.
I hope it works out for you both soon. There is so little rhyme or reason. I have done everything the same way with my two and they are very different in terms of feeding, sleeping, settling. I hate to say it but a lot is just luck.

hell I'm a thumbsucker
I try not to be and haven't that I know of for a while but do catch myself about to when I'm very upset or suffering from extreme exhaustion.

Frekkles I do feel for you. With ds1 I was lucky if I got 3hours broken sleep a night. I used to literally bounce off walls with tiredness though luckily for me (and all around me) I didn't have to work. How I was safe to look after a baby I don't know

Agree with Puzz a lot is luck

I say just do what makes life easiest. As long as its not gag and bind them then you won't harm them long term

I'm back! Lovely two weeks in Devon, we were so lucky with the weather and spent most of the time on the beach. Poor Hazel of course was in the sun tent so didn't see that much of the beach, actually. Her sleeping has improved loads - crosses all fingers it stays that way - but her eczema looks horrible, with big weeping red patches behind her knees and on her feet

Juw, if you're around, how long is it safe to use the steroid creams for? We've been using them for two weeks now.

Now, for the marathon catch up. Hope everyone is well, but I am sure I'll read all about it!

WFH is weaning Orbit!!! NO WAY!!! Just when I had decided that I am no in such a hurry after all, what with improved sleeping and the eczema.

My ring sling has arrived and it's FAB!

It's a Storchenwiege, this one and it's so easy and comfortable to wear, even when Orbit does his leaning over the edge like a tourist on the Eiffel Tower thing!

Love it, wish I'd bought it earlier, wil have to have another baby to get full use out of it!

Hey, I'll have you know he's meeting the weaning criteria! No tongue thrust, sitting up, pincer grasp etc. Plus he's 26 weeks next week.