Dec 08 - 9 months in, 9 months out!

[jumpjockey]

Hope you don't mind the dodgy thread name but all our babies are 9 months old now or in the next few weeks

Nobody hates you for cc, WG. If they do, they are unsympathetic and unfeeling. My Mum had to leave me to cry as I cried incessantly and nearly sent her mad, and I can assure you I am hang up free, emotionally well adjusted (I think!) and a useful member of society! What else can you do? Your DD is very well loved and very well looked after. You and your DH DESERVE a vestige of sleep and sanity. The cot IS a lovely place to sleep. Bon courage!

No one will hate you WG. We did controlled crying with DS2 last week as we knew we had no other option. Hope it works out well. A lot of people say it only takes 3 nights and it did for us.

Sneaky quick post as I started work this afternoon... (it is my coffee break ) WG Good luck with the cc, no one will hate you for it at all. If you were doing cc when madam was 4 weeks old it might have been a different matter! All you are doing is trying to teach her to fall asleep on her own. A very important life skill.

DD is with MIL this afternoon but starts nursery tomorrow .

Love to everyone.

Hello everyone, back from Berlin and have a big backlog of posts to catch up on, will do that tonight when DD is not creating havoc around me. Hope everyone is well! Am a bit to be back and suddenly on my own with DD again, makes me realise how much easier it is when there are two of you! We have also bitten the bullet and signed her up for nursery.

WG We have done CC so you have my complete sympathy, I hope it goes well for you. DD is much happier when she has slept properly, so you have to tell yourself than sane parents and well rested baby is worth the short term pain. If you are not a walking zombie you are a lot more fun as a mum, is my view! It worked for us - we still have to do it again occasionally (by which I mean ignoring the odd wail rather than letting her scream if she is ill or something) or she would slip back into her old habits but it's got her from 3 plus feeds a night to one in the early morning - sometimes as late as 6am. Best of luck, thinking of you tonight!

Oh dumb question: If you can feel a sharp little tooth in the mouth does that means it's already "through" the gum? I can feel something very sharp on BabyPanda's gum but she won't let me have a good look in her mouth..!

Hi all.
Please excuse my absence over the last few days. The dog ate my homework.
WG please don't think anyone will hate you. We feel your pain and want it to work for you.
Can I ask - how do you do CC? I know that sounds daft but do you just ignore from a different room? or go in? how long do you leave them for? I am at end of tether phase with P now I think - I even cried in front of my new colleagues today because this is so hard. Last time we 'trained' her a couple of months ago she would lie down and cry and we would pat her and she would eventually (10-15mins) go back to sleep. Now kneels in her cot, holding the bars and yelling the most blood curdling screams you've ever heard and it just goes on. and on. We leave her and she carries on. We go in and she carries on. We try to pat her but she won't lie down. We lift her out and she carries on. Last night I eve shoved boob in as a last oh-well-let's-blow-all-our-previous-efforts resort, but she just sucked a tiny but then carried on yelling. I convinced myself she must have meningitis as she was arching her back and screaming so much, but as she was fine this morning I guess I can rule that out. SO what do we do? I've rung the HV after work today but she wasn't there and will hopefully ring back tomorrow, but short of coming round at night and doing it for me, I don't see how she can help anyway. I know this will pass, she will grow up, but right now it's too hard.
sorry for the woe is me post.
JJ lovely to have you back*verso hello! Glad things are going well - tell us more
Kiwi - sounds like a tooth is through! We still have none here.
Daisy sorry about your grandparents' ill health. That is so worrying for you. Really praying they both pick up hugely.
JB how was work? I'm sure nursery will be just fine tomorrow and they won't mind at all if you ring them up at lunch time to see how she is.
Kayz how was the long shift?
Sorry I know I've missed loads because I'm spending too much time thinking about myself.
Will try to pop back later.

WG - please, please don't think anyone would hate you for doing cc. We can all see from your posts that you are all at the end of your tether and that doesn't do your DD any good either. For what its worth, we did a form of cc with our DD just to get her to sleep (she was normally fine once asleep but a nightmare to settle). It painful for a little while, but we had got to the point where she would cry, we would pick her up and actually she just cried some more because she really wanted to go to sleep but couldn't get herself there - boob, holding etc etc each stopped working and there was no way round it other than her having to figure it out. One thing I have learnt having 2 DC's is that advice anyone gives you from their own experience always has to be taken with a big pinch of salt as each child is different. DS settles to sleep without any trouble and I finally understand why people just didn't seem to get it when I talked about DD - but there is no way we could have got DD to behave like DS does - the same things just don't work.

Daisydora - so very sorry to hear about your grandparents.

kiwi - glad to hear you got your childcare sorted - those decisions are really hard, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the babies get on just fine whatever we do!

urbane - good luck with the nanny hunt.

Not so much news with us as runny noses and coughs. DD sounds like darth vader at the moment. DS finally had an appointment at the eye clinic - as it turns out he doesn't have a squint, only the appearance of one as he has slightly wonky eyes and a wide bridge - good call trace for figuring out that might be it! He is also very wriggly - I'd definitely recommend slightly less mobile babies! Yesterday he figured out how to come up 2 steps to a little half landing we have all on his own, so there is no stopping him, particularly when he wants to follow his big sister. Needless to say, she thinks it all hilarious and loves getting into the places where he and she should not be.

Bit of a minor childcare crisis at the moment though. Our nanny showed up this morning after a long weekend with raging conjunctivitis. Sent her home to go to the docs and get antibiotics, which she has done. Not sure what to do about the next few days though. Tell her to keep away because its horribly infectious? Although I saw that the NHS direct advice is that conjunctivitis isn't a reason to keep kids off school. Both DCs have been miserable with colds lately so don't really fancy another round of illness, but lack of childcare is annoying, especially as I have a few meetings set up this week with people who might enploy me, or at least recommend me. Bah.

WG - Don't think of it as crying, think of it as her expressing (vigorously) her opinion about the new regime! Seriously though, we did the exact same thing. First replaced boob with cuddles, and then went to shushing in the cot instead of cuddles. Getting them off the boob association is the hard part, in my experience. You're almost there! Someone on the Sleep board made a really interesting point about "controlled crying" - she was saying that by rushing to them and scooping them up at every single peep at night maybe we are teaching them that there is something scary about being in their cot on their own. Similar to other fears like dogs, or getting water in their eyes, or anything, instead of rushing in and adding to the perception that it is scary, you would instead comfort calmly but reassure that they are going to be okay. Same with showing them that it is okay to be on their own in the cot at night.

Since we followed Arti's scheme and stopped feeding at night, the difference is remarkable. Still lots of dodgy nights here and there and quite a few 5 am starts, but so so much better. Like last night I would class as a "bad night", but it was 5 mins of shushing in the cot at 3:00 and awake for the day at 5:00. Two months ago that would have been a very good night for us!

Good luck! Get your IPOD ready to keep you distracted - it really helped us. We also found that the going in and out of the room at intervals wound him up more, so had much better luck with sitting by the cot (but where he couldn't see us) with a hand on his chest and just saying "shhhh".

That's all I can write for the moment, but just wanted WG to know that we have been in the exact same place and came out the other side!

waves< back at daisydora. Hello there! Thanks for the welcome back .

wg don't let anyone hassle you for cc. You have to do whatever it takes! I really really hope it works for you. A friend of mine did it with both her sons and said it was horrible/stressful the first two nights but worked out on night three - just like kayzr says. I really hope you get some sleep. Fingers crossed!

LadyT the new job is lovely thanks . Really nice people, a better job title, and none of the baggage from the old one. I can't say what happened re the old one, but let's say I've got "closure" .

JollyBear good luck with DD's nursery tomorrow. Both mine went to nursery and LOVED it. It's sad the first time you leave them, but then you realise they're getting loads of fun things to do all day with lots of children the same age and it doesn't feel so bad once they settle in. (DD1 popped into her old nursery yesterday to collect DD2 with DH and was telling me all about it this evening - all the people she knew there - and how she's a big girl at school now etc etc.)

Kiwi sharpness of gum does indeed mean a tooth has landed!

Trace not sure if this will help at all but we did modified controlled crying with DD2. I think the traditional thing is you leave them for gradually longer and longer periods - but I was worried she would get really inconsolable if we did that. So instead we did a strict 5 minute interval thing - and went in, picked up (not too much swaying or soothing or cuddling - though it's hard to resist!) and then put down when calm again and leave. Then repeat.

We still do this if she has a bad night that isn't virus- or tooth-related. (Thanks for asking how things are going btw. Just v happy with new part-time-working DH, who has taken to his new role with incredible vigour - currently trying to beat his record each week for most economical food shopping/meal planning. I feel like we've got the balance just about right - at last. Somebody tell me WHY I'm feeling broody for number three? . SOMEBODY SLAP ME I MUST BE MENTAL!!!)

GOOD LUCK FOR TONIGHT WG. Be strong, drink wine (gin?) and eat chocolate!

Evening all, WG sending you lots of strength vibes for this evening. Of course we'll never criticise you for doing cc if that's what it takes to help Madam get the hang of sleeping on her own. We're all here if you need to let off any steam tonight.

Had a bit of a row with DH at 3am last night over him saying he feels I give him orders about what to do with dd, me saying it's that he never makes any decisions so I'm just telling him what I know works. Said we'd discuss it in daylight but I think it might end up going under the carpet. Oh well...

And having wobbles about the CM, have written a separate thread about it but she didn't seem to take much notice of dd at all, and forgot our appointment to sign all the contracts etc, on the whole not so sure about her any more - but as we don't have any choice, we're in a bit of a dark place again. Currently emailing lots of nanny agencies etc to see if anyone can come up with any ideas...

right - more catching up later hopefully, big big positive vibes to you WG and Mr WG, and sleepy vibes to Madam.

Work was pants!! I just wish it was a bit busier so I was kept busy all day. I am seriously considering finding something else but not much ever comes up round here.

WG, good luck for tonight, I did CC on the advice of my doctor when DS1 was about this age, I think. The doc had 3 kids of his own and he was very sympathetic about how hard it is but I've never forgotten the conversation. He basically said, Well you can keep coming down here to see if there is a physical reason for this or just do what I did and teach them to sleep. Its not cruel to teach your child how to sleep. Its hard, but try not to feel bad tonight. I hope it goes well.

wg just to say good luck for tonight. I hope it isn't as bad as you expect...and please don't hate yourself. I really hope it works, you deserve some proper rest.

WG just adding my good luck to you. I hope it works for you. You really deserve it.

Good luck, WG, thinking of you .

Wow that was a marathon trying to catch up on this thread. Now I can't remember anything except WG's guilt over CC and ZJ's work thing. Oh and Artis face eye contact thing.

WG there are plenty of people in the world who will tut you over the CC but those people aren't with you at 3am when you are on your knees with tiredness and on the brink of throwing Madam out the nearest window. I've said before at this age it is fine if you are commited to it. Under 3 months I have to admit I would tut but over 3 months they can cope (on a pqthophysiological level) with crying. Also I was thinking of you while we were away. I put DS1 to bed at our friends house over there, in a bed he had never slept in in a foreign country and I read his book gave him a kiss and turned the light off and closed the door. He very happily settled off to sleep on his own. The reason I'm telling you this is, like verso said, my DS1 was just like madam needed feeds to sleep (I know she doesn't now so that's a big achievement for you) and he would only fall asleep in my arms and woke several to times a night. We came out the other side of it and he sleeps now in his own bed and goes to sleep on his own. I know that may not help you now but one day she will sleep.

ZJ I think if you wanted to work part time you should stick with that intent. This time in DDs life will never occur again and you can never get it back as long as you and she live. However you can seek another career or somehow rekindle the old one. This could be a whole new challenging career change for you.

Urbane hooray for crazy swimming behaviour. I once stripped down to my undies and dove into Lochness at midnight under the gorgeous moonlight, quite chilly but very invigorating.

Arti!!! Get thee to selfridges lingerie section, or if well endowed Bravissimo!

Lady damn right you should be boasting, DD is amazing to be pointing and understanding what you say as well as repeating. Clearly a very advance linguist.

WG hooray for your work thing too, wow well done on teaching after the break esp after only newly qualifying, I'm quite awestruck by that effort.

I went to a parent teacher night at DS1's school (in good Montessori fashion it was actually a wine & cheese night very civilized) DS1 is doing really well and is quite the Mr popularity at school his teacher adores him and is quite sad that he may be leaving them soon. They showed me a little poem thing that he composed and he said in it that his favourite person is DS2, aaawwww made me a bit teary.

Sardinia was wonderful gloriously hot weather and just beautiful beaches. Last night we had a lovely dinner with our friends family over there and there were lots of kids non of the kids spoke English but DS1 had a great time with them anyway and found a little girlfriend 2 years older than him cheeky. It was funny watching them all play with him and develop a way to communicate through gestures like adult do when confronted with people they need to communicate with but who don't speak their language.

Right better go it's late now and I'm shattered. DS2 loved Sardinia but didn't sleep particularly well in the heat. Oh he has 2 very large and slow moving front top teeth now they still seem to be causing discomfort poor little man and he is quite off his solids and back to almost exclusive BF, cue sore boozies.

Oh Arti I was going to comment on the face thing but so tired now, are you still concerned, what is your main concern? Austism? Social interaction problems? Or just general development?

Right sleep.

Just popping in briefly. I have been lurking & reading when I can but life seems to be going at double speed atm.

Wg how did last night go? I can only repeat what others have said, that no-one will judge or hate you for cc. I can't imagine that level of exhaustion and you and dh do need to get some of your life back.

Will try and have a proper catch up later but need to get ds1 to school.

wg how did it go?? I was sat trying to sort DS out at 1am and was thinking of you and hoping you were all tucked up fast asleep Gosh, noone would hate you for it...in fact the opposite i totally admire you for having the guts to give it a go. Wish i did....

kayz Boo to boring work, been there its awful wishing you were at home with your children.

veggie glad you had a lovely time in Sardinia

Someone asked about my intentions re: going teaching (Ladyt i think), well i am still going to apply...I think. I do want to do it but several things are niggling at the moment; 1) PGCE is a very demanding course and not sure if I can give it and DS 100% when he will only be small still. I feel like DD will have had more from me than he will have got. 2) having checked job vaccancies for teachers around here we do not appear to be in an area of 'national shortage' iyswim. 3) i have no experience of working with children/young people so this might go against me. i think that I might be better trying to find something short term that might give me the necessary experience and just put it on hold for a couple of years.

No further news on my GP's yet thanks for asking and the concern everyone. My nan should no more by the end of next week, as for my Grandad well, lets just say that his traeatment (or lack of) is dispicable! His case has been ongoing since June.

Ds has been awake since 5am, so i am shattered already. I hate to say it but I now dread night-time and putting him to bed. I seemed to shout at DD non-stop last night prior to bed simply becuase I was so tired and an edge with DS. I hate to say but I am really not enjoying him much at the moment. I struggle to get him to sleep during the day, so he is tired and cranky all day. Then bedtime comes he is massively overtired and cries all the time and I cannot even put him down. But then putting him in his cot becomes another battleground. DH blames me for not being able to get himto sleep during the day so that when he gets home from work he has no QT with DS as he is just miserable. I just want the old 'boy' back. He is going backwards very quickly.

Sorry that is a very bad 'me, me, me' rant. i am very lucky and blessed to have him I'd just like some sleep to go with him.

Morning

WG hope last night went well.

Veggie glad you had a good holiday. I've always thought that Sardinia looks lovely.

Daisy hope DS starts to sleep for you soon. We've had a few night of DS2 waking again. Hoping it's a one of though.

Back to work at 9, only until 1 though.

Hope you are all well.

daisy sorry to hear all that you sound like you are struggling at the moment....I am sure it is a stage that will pass soon...
I hope you feel better soon.
And your DH is an arse for saying that! Get him to look after DS all weekend and then he can give you his wisdom afterwards on how to get him to nap in the day.

daisy sorry about your sleep problems with ds. We're having problems with ds2 as well atm, I'm sure they're all communicating somehow! Btw, I was all set to start my PGCE when I fell pg with ds1, if you want any info then email me.

veggie glad you had a good holiday, I've always fancied Sardinia!

welcome back from your hols Veggie - it's odd but the thread never quite seems complete when you're away!
TillY - good to see you too - we've missed you.
Daisy I really know where you're coming from about not really enjoying ds at the moment. P used to be such a laid back happy smiler, but lately she seems very grumpy. Don't know why - perhaps teeth or development? I want my smiler back too. Hope his naps go really well for you today.
Waiting with baited breath to hear how WG got on last night...
Our night was awful. I actually wrote down everything that happened, with the hope that if I do that for a few nights I will see an improvement and will be encouraged. There was so much crying from her and not enough sleeping at all from any of us. This morning she is still grumpy and sounds very hoarse.
Has she cried so much she has made herself hoarse? In which case am I making her ill by leaving her to cry?
Or did she cry so much because she had a sore throat? In which case I have let her lie there in pain and feel abandoned by me.
Either way I feel shit and guilt-ridden about it. And I don't swear normally.
Am taking her to the GP this morning to check her throat and ears, and I'm waiting for my HV to call me because I need help.
One thing I was told was that babies often sleep worse when they've just started going to child care because you're apart in the day so they try to make up for it at night. Don't know if it's true - and if it is it doesn't exactly make me feel better, but I guess it helps to know it's a normal phase.

hello all. thank you all for the good wishes, good luck and thoughts. here's how operation hard-ball went on night one...

basically we did everything exactly the same as usual for bedtime - feed downstairs, bath, book, bed, lullaby, cuddle, and instead of holding her until she went to sleep, i put her in the cot, said night night and closed the door behind me. she went mental the minute she was put in the cot. i then went in after 3 mins, said the same thing -mummy's here, it's all right, go to sleep - closed the door. went more mental. after 5 mins did the same thing. went even more mental. after 8 mins did hte same thing. went super mental, especially after i'd gone in. the millpond lady talked about crying up and crying down - when the crying escalates, that is crying up and you can go in. but when the crying winds down, don't go in as she is probably getting ready for sleep. but then she started crying down - there were periods of silence, then a wail, then silence. and suddenly there was silence, a slight whimper (so we knew she was still alive), and then silence. it had taken 22 mins. then she woke up at 10 - and i did the same thing, and it took 18 mins. then she woke up at 3.45, did the same thing (much harder when you've been asleep), and it took 12 mins. and then she woke at - drum roll - 7am (the last 3 mornings at 5). and she didn't seem traumatised, or damaged, but delightful.

i have to say, i was fully prepared for it mentally. i had a wall of perspex up between me and the crying and managed to get through it. dh, however, was in pieces, but to be honest, we both thought it was going to be way worse. the millpond lady said the worst she had known it to take was 1.5 hours, and dh was certain madam would give that statistic a run for its money, but 22 mins is, in teh grand scheme of things, nothing. we chose the timing intervals of 3,5 and 8 ourselves and didn't do the traditional 5,10,15.

so day one over. now day two, which apparently is a bit easier, and day 3 which csn be a test day adn revert back to being tricky. but hopefully that will be the worst of it over.

i had the most sleep i've had in a good few months, which is saying something, and dh is now feeling a bit better about it. i just kept saying to myself that we were doing this for madam's sake, and we weren't being cruel, but doing what needed doing. i actually suspect madam was somehow ready for it - she is a bright, sunny little girl, who is pretty independent during the day, and she needs to learn how to do it at night too.

anyway - trace, you had a question for me from earlier - i will look back and try and answer.

and once this is all over, i will try and get back to personals.

thanking you all so much for the white light and basket stuff - it has really really helped!

wg that is brilliant, I'm so glad last night went well for you all, fingers crossed it continues