Dec 08 mums - embuggerance to it all - sleep or no sleep we love our babes

[waitinggirl]

i hope people don't mind, i took the bull by the horns and did it. title a bit naff, but more important the thread exists rather than search for a better title. hope i haven't stolen anyone's thunder...

LOL at our competitive partners!

Ironically one of my main worries with both DSs is autism, as there are several men in both our families who I suspect are on the spectrum (albeit high functioning) and sometimes I'm not too sure about me... but the one thing both have 'got' pretty early is communication, eye contact and so on.

Anyway better go - need to get some shopping before our walk in the woods

wg like everyone else, I wish there was something I can do or say to help. I know you're worried about staying at home, but if it helps to know I've cocooned myself at home as well when ds2 has had bad nights & it has made me feel better. When he napped or was playing in his chair, I rested on the sofa either with a book or the tv. I know its easier said than done, but try not to stress about the things that are out of your control. And remember, as Effie said, we've all used the basket, you've been there for many of us with friendship & advice, time for us to do the same for you

effie ds2 doesn't have any teeth & isn't really sitting up yet, he can for about 10 secs then slowly topples over! I'm sure its the weight of his tummy & thighs bringing him down

Cookery tip No 1:

Don't burn omelette. It smells like burning hair. It smells, in fact, like I have been staging a reconstruction of the last living minutes of Joan of Arc.

Lal, didn't say earlier - thanks so much for your kind words! Bless you. And a couple of top tips. We have one of those behemoth 'travel cots' (very convenient, as long as you are travelling by lorry) and I have been wondering what to do with it. Filling it with balls and using it as a playpen might be fun for DD. And I had clean forgotten about those walkabout things! DD would love one. Sod the cat's bumfaces on the wider Mumsnet.

Right, must try to get some work done today! And tidying and washing for me week's hol on Saturday...

Ladyt I stay away from omelettes now, I've ruined so many pans trying to cook them!

hello.
WG no we don't wish you hadn't posted. We're glad you did and we share your pain/frustration/fear/exhaustion...
I was in tears the other night as I fed P, thinking I was a failure - like you said - for giving in and feeding her. But is it really a failure to bring our precious ones comfort? I'm not managing to leave her to cry - I try for a few minutes then I go to her and usually end up feeding her. I ask dh to settle her then I go in and take her off him because I can't bear that she's still crying. We were chatting last night about whether trying to settle her without boob at some night feeds is any use at all if we don't do it at ALL of them - on the basis that she has no idea of time so will we confuse her if I refuse her the boob at 10 but give it to her at 12? Does she need to go the whole night (Mrs Sleep style) or will that starve her as she has never done a big length like that? I don't think the answer is in a book - unfortunately it's not in my head, heart or instinct either! All I know is it is our IMMENSE love for them which makes this so hard. If we were not so overwhelmingly in love with them the crying wouldn't pierce out hearts. We have had them living in us for 9 months and been by their sides for 6 or more months - providing for their every need. They are a part of us and being loved so strongly by their mummy is the surest foundation we can give them. Madam may not sleep but that doesn't mean it's gone 'wrong'. I have a friend with a 'perfect' baby - he's just a few weeks younger than P and sleeps, eats, plays textbook style. But just because he does that doesn't mean that his smile brings her any more joy than P's brings to me. P and Madam are not broken - they have character! You got through those HORRENDOUS first few weeks and you will get through this. Talk to your DH and tell him that, though you see why he makes the comments about her going off him, it makes it harder for you and that he needs to try hard to not allow those thoughts - Madam is too young to 'withhold' love from him or decide she has gone off him or got bored of him, He simply does not have lactating boobs. The emotion involved in his comments puts an extra strain on you because you then worry about how to make him feel better about it - and you don't have the energy to do that right now. Can he focus on things he CAN do for her - settling at night is never going to be the easiest for him, but bathtime or playtime or tickle time could be? If he realises he still has that bond with her he may be able to support you more. As for going out - in my experience staying in when I was feeling low was not good for me. I needed to see people to stop myself dwelling on the hard stuff. But like Tillie says it can also be a chance to rest when she does (if she does) - so Lady's idea of doing half days at home sounds very wise to me. Can people come round to your house so that Madam can have her 'routine' or familiarity but you are not isolated and are getting some adult social contact to keep you going? I wish I lived near you. Feel I may have gone on rather - sorry - I just feel for you so much and want to urge you to give yourself a break and to keep posting - this thread is beautifully strong and healing.

ladyT funny what you're saying about MNers being anti-playpen - last night I posted a thread asking for advice on dealing with my dd1's increasingly bad behaviour - I used the word punishment and anyone would think I had mentioned capital punishment! It seems parents are not to punish these days because it undermines the child - or something like that!

oh and effie - my dh keeps saying that P is 'a bit special' because she just sits and smiles! She is still pretty much silent (apart from her new growling skill) has just mastered sitting but has no desire to take any weight through her legs if I hold her in a standing position - she lifts them up like a frog! She will roll but makes no attempt to crawl. And no teeth her - but my dd1 didn't get her first tooth until she was 1 year!

On the playpen thing we have one. Before we moved we just used the travel cot in the front room for DS1. It just meant I could hoover, cook, iron etc and he was safe. My Mum got a big playpen to use at her house which we now have. We haven't used it yet for DS2 but probably will start using it soon. Though it has a door that opens by zip so I am fully expecting DS1 to let him out!!

The only thing I don't really like is those baby walkers. My friends DD managed to tip her's out of the back door and cracked her skull. Though I suppose it is more my friends fault than the baby walker.

I was thinking about using our travel cot as a playpen, hmm, might bring it up today.

On the walker things, I personally don't like them but you can get some which don't move. The baby can spin themselves around in them but not push it along, similar to this. There's one at the baby group we go to & ds2 loves it

Hello girls

I can't stop as I am having a work crisis (already?!) and need to get on while M sleeps. I have not been exactly honest with work about the fact that I am childcare free on a Wed so I am itting it around naps etc.

I just wanted to offer to my support to WG and say that you are doing such a grand job. The basket is here for you and you should offload as much as you need. I will pop back when I am feeding M to try to say something a bit more constructive.

M can't sit, has 2 teeth, loves to roll and gets on his knees but doesn't move. DD1 crawled at 6 months (off a bed onto a marble floor in Italy) and DD2 not until 11 months. They wil all get there. DOn't worry.

My friend(and supervisor) just text me. I need to go and see my manager about going back to work I really don't want to go back at all. I am really upset about it.

On a good note though we are definetly(sp) ttc in November!

Oh well Im in bits now this thread has made me teary and giggly this morning I'm going to give you a too many gins style 'I love yoooooo guuuuuuyyyyyysssss!'. I want to make coffee for WG, whilst eating an Omelete (yes I feel like omelete now) whilst simultaneously calling out the window at passes by 'your all a bunch of cat's bumfacers'.

WG your post was so sad to read but also felt so familiar, it was like I was reading a personal journal entry from 3 years ago. DS1 was very similar to madam and in the end I just went with it and fed him when he wanted and also put him into bed with us. After a while of this I got more sleep and felt able to tackle eventually putting back in his cot and into his room (often sleeping by his cot myself on a campbed, the floor is surprisingly comfortable). I have also mentioned here before the pain I have felt not knowing what the hell is wrong and walking away from him, then with the distance having some perspective and hearing what was wrong. I also can relate to the baby as crutch thing, I still often feel quite naked without a baby in front of me in groups, unless it's with close friends, and it was a year after DS1 was born tat I felt able to cope with being in groups of more than a couple of people. I just couldn't follow the conversation. I have been thinking I'm going to join a singing group or a triathlon club to force myself to do something other than look after the boys and talk babies. I am becoming quite comfortable with my life and need to get uncomfortable.

I doubt any of that helps but sometimes it is nice to know other and going a bit loopy too. All of you gave such lovely responses to WG it was so touching and made me feel so lucky to know you all. In particular Trace, you have such amazing empathy & weve said it before you really really really should consider starting a support group for PND you could do such amazing things with it.

I want to write more but have to go as DH is just off the phone from his boss it's all a bit stressful here.

just logged on. thank you so much, all of you. very teary. thanks

WG you poor girl. Nothing you said in that last post is unusual or something to be ashamed of. DD1 was also similar to Madam and DH regularly joked that she hated him and it broke my heart to the point I would force her on him and then get sad when she cried. I think Trace's last post is lovely and so true - this would be a lot easier if we were not so overwhelmed by our love for them. Big hugs to you and I second the idea of getting mates around to hang-out with you while you get Madam into a home routine.

Effie - DD2 still can't really sit. She does it for a minute and then either cries with fear or face plants. She hates tummy time and just lies with her face on the floor moaning in fury until I turn her over. She once tolled front to back and once back to front - but that as over a month go and has never been repeated. She does have two teeth but only used them to make bite marks in my nipples... I really would not worry. Like your DS2 she has great eye contact and babbles away and smiles at everyone who smiles at her - those are the signs you want if you are worried about autism.

I forgot to tell you all about the house in Horsham. It was amazing to look around. I ended up taking Veggie's advice and telling the Agent my story. I had even brought a couple of photos of my Dad playing in the garden and I tried to work out where he would have been standing etc. The Agent was really interested, especially when I explained my grandparents were doctors and had turned the house into a nursing home for injured soldiers who they cared for during WW2. I would love to live in a house like that - it was so lovely and big with a huge garden. Lucky that we really can't afford it else I would be blackmailing DH into a out-of-town move.

I am worried about Zoe. Have we heard from her since she was really suffering from mastitis and her DH was away? I hope you are OK Zoe.

Hey WG, we did miss you.

Effie, of he's a chatty thing he's probably working that side of his development. Ds2 isn't much of a chetterer. Also with all the stuff he can do he hadn't worked out how to sit himself and from the sitting position to get back onto his stomach he does fall forward onto his hands he just falls forward and face plants. Onto carpets or grass outside it's not so bad but straight onto wood floors it's nasty.

Greetings..... horrible crappy weather here....
WG - sorry to hear your troubles, and again I can't really offer any advice that the others haven't said as I don't read the baby books for exactly that reason (that they are conflicting and a load of crap)I try loads of different things when one thing doesn't work, until something eventually does. For me it was ditching the dummy..... He hasn't been napping for as long during the day recently, so is extremely knackered by 6 and so last night went straight to sleep just after 6pm which is early (normally 7-730) I thought oh no, here we go it'll be a busy night, but not a peep until 6am I have also ditched the "sleep sheep" so no more sleep aids at all (poor boy lost his dummy, his sheep, his 11pm feed all in the same week but it worked.....) No longer needing to turn on the sheep or re apply the dummy 5 times a night. I also give him teething powder before bed too.
Effie - ds will be 7 months on Friday and he still doesn't sit up properley - except like baby Tilly for about 10 secs then topples over! I thought it was his shape since he's quite long and lean. He also doesn't have any teeth at all yet there are lots of bumps on the gums, and as for crawling, he still just flaps his arms and legs while lying on his tummy.
Sorry - there has been about 2 hours break in my typing here as I have been fuming over tenant procedures with the change over in our flat, and subsequently tied up in time wasting email exchanges simply to point out legal obligation I will post this and then read again!

Hi everyone, I?m back and healthy again at last (thanks for thinking of me arti, I was using my free time to rest and recuperate, but I?ve missed you all). As my fever was showing no signs of relenting last week I went back to the doctor and he agreed that the first anti biotics weren?t working so gave me a second set ? and discovered that as well as the mastitis I also had a throat and ear infection. The new AB?s started to work almost immediately, I was able to take all my fleeces off that afternoon! But unfortunately they irritated my tummy and made me vomit several times a day. But I persevered as I was feeling so much better otherwise and finally by Monday I was vomit and temperature free ? hurrah! It?s so great to feel back to normal again, although I?m sure I?m overdoing it this week as I try to get everything prepared for DD?s christening that was I supposed to do last week ? oh well, its just a relief that we didn?t have her christened last weekend, which was actually plan A.

Kayz I loved your christening pics, but your DS2 looks so grown up compared to my DD! (and Effie no crawling, sitting or teeth here either)

LadyT very sorry to hear that your employers are being uncooperative, to say the least. I do hope that your new plan is acceptable to them. And Spiggy, I read with interest your post to LadyT as I?m likely to need to pick your brain myself on work matters (sorry)

Its great to have you back Invisible

WG so sorry to read that your progress on napping and sleeping has taken a step back ? remember this too shall pass. I can only offer sympathies on the sleeping, but on napping I feel we?ve made some progress ? I too imposed exile on DD and myself to try and sort out the naps, until I realised it was getting me down. My compromise was to make sure DD got one good nap a day (for us the morning one was the one most likely to succeed) and then go with the flow for the rest of the day. I also put a tick in my diary every day a nap goes well ? hey, if it works for toddlers it can work for me too I found it encouraging to be able to say ?we got a tick on Tuesday and Friday this week, so we managed it twice and we can do it? and most weeks now I get 4 or 5 ticks, which is great. I?d second Tilly?s idea of resting whenever your DD rests, as that should help you feel stronger with the nights. Big hugs and lots of luck x (all great advise, coming from she who battled for 40 minutes this morning to get DD to nap, and she managed 15 minutes - don't think that deserves a tick!)

I want to get a playpen too Jolly, I know what people think of them, but we have an open fire so better to have a ?prison? to use when necessary than to have a badly hurt DD. I?ve got my eye on this one, as I think it can be used as a play pen, or as a fence to keep LO?s away from areas

Hi to everyone I haven?t caught up with, hope you?re all well?

I will leave you with this conversation from the ZJ household last night at bedtime:
MrZJ ?are you feeling rude, or shall I bring my book to bed??
ZJ ?I could be persuaded?
MrZJ ?well why don?t we crack on with the rude things and get it over with quickly, so we still have time to read afterwards?
who said romance is dead?

wg- you sound like I did with DS. He was a horrendous sleeper. Woke every 20mins- 1 1/2 hrs and would be awake for up to 3 hours. I was going gaga from lack of sleep and spent most of my days in tears. I was dreading DD's arrival in case she did the same (luckily she is nowhere near that bad)
A few things that I discoved along the way:

1. His sleep issues seemed to be linked with his deveopment. The very very bad nights were usually in the week leading up to him doing something new and the week afterwards while he practiced them Perhaps you are going through something similar and the crawling/sitting etc will suddenly happen next week. 2)I did whatever it took for me to get through the day(and night) I tried most of the sleep techniques and tried to give them a good run, apart from controlled crying which just felt so far away from how I parent that I lasted 10mins before cracking. In the end me and DP would split the night into shifts and would take it in turns to co-sleep in a futon in his room. He settled much more easily if he had body contact at all times so thats what we did. As long as I got 4hours uninterupted sleep I could cope with the rest. When it was my turn away from him I bought earplugs so I couldn't hear him fussing with DP and go in and take over. This gave DP the chance to learn his own settling techniques without me helicoptering over him. If he got really really upset I could hear him through the earplugs and go through but normal cross shouting didn't get past the earplugs. 3)It may not seem like it but it WILL pass. At 13 months DS sat bolt upright in our shared bed and demanded to go in his cot. He went from waking upwards of 10 times a night to sleepng 7-8 in two weeks. We did nothing different. 4)I made getting him to go to bed (he'd start the night in his cot) DP's job. I would feed him and put him to bed. Any time he woke after that, until we went to bed, was DP's job. He pushed the futon up against DS's cot and would lie there (listening to the radio normally) holding DS's hand through the cot bar. DS gradually learned to fall asleep on his own in this way. It gave me some much needed childfree time and DS learned that milk and sleep didn't necessarily go together. I still fed at night- anything to shut him up when it was my shift! Some people would say this was mixed messages but I really didn't give a damn. It worked for us and that is all I cared about. Some children are just crap sleepers and there is naff all you can do to fix it before they are ready. (my mum takes great glee in my children's lack of sleep as I did exactly the same to her. Really hope that things improve for you soon.

zj- anytime you need a hand just give me a shout.

right my boobs are about to explode so I must go and do my expressing.

Greetings from the house of ill - I've developed a sniffle and DS1 after happily running round the woods all morning has just been sick and is now fast asleep in bed. DH is muttering 'swine flu' and has popped into town, presumably to buy a mask. Thanks for all the tales of non-sitting uncoordinated babies , I am looking at DS2 kicking and gurgling away and wondering how I could think anything was wrong. Apart from his being too fat to sit up.

Zoe: great to hear from you and so glad you're better. Hope you are fully recovered for the weekend. We have a few friends down for the afternoon, about 1/100 of the stress of a christening and I'm worried about getting organised for that! Can you palm a few jobs off on family and friends?

Trace: when will you hear about the job?

Kayz: boo to work, though it sounds like you won;t be back for long .

DS2 is trying to eat the pillow so had better go (tucked up in bed with a packet of wine gums, making the most of DS1's nap. When he wakes it will be Fireman Sam on loop. Then I have to scrib the buggy - ick)

Oh and I was thinking of you this morning Kayz cos I took my (wrap) sling on the walk so DS2 could have a good look around - some of the looks I got! I also met the first actually unpleasant mums I have come across since having DS1 (not a bad record, and maybe they were just having a bad day). Snippy and snidey and not at all nice. Unlike you lot who are all luvverly.

We have a tooth! Well, a line but it's there!

I won the 02 survey thing! Me! I won something!

Ds being a pain, got to grab stuff for Rainbows and head to Dr with him. Blinking constipation.

I am going to be strong tonight. Have been having a go at the Mrs sleep technique and it has had some results at times so shall be string, shall set my feeding targets and I will have sleep. Not tonight but soon.

Dd baffles me with her sitting and lunging around prowess. Ds didn't see the point of rolling and didn't sit til 9 months. I wouldn't worry Effie!

Btw have added some of DH's genius photographs to FB. Yes, DS2 is that supercilious (and DS1 is a loon)

waitinggirl I hope you start to get some sleep soon, sleep deprivation really is a killer. I would concentrate on you just getting maximum sleep at the moment. Forget sleep training, just feed her off and get yourself back to sleep quickly. Once things start to calm down a bit try to start up again with the getting her to sleep without the boob and from awake, or if you really don't want to stop yet try it with one nap a day to keep the good habits going. Maybe the first nap of the day? One thing that keeps me going is just knowing it isn't his fault - it may take me a while to figure out the problem but he isn't doing it to annoy me, he just for whatever reason needs me right now. In other cultures the baby is still sleeping in their mum's bed and helping themselves to food whenever they like all night, so even if he just needs a bit of comfort that is normal really.

effie's post has made me wonder when all the other babies were born. N was born on boxing day so I assume he is one of the youngest - does he have a twin on here?

we're having a complete nightmare here, teething is causing N to scream out every 2 hours in the night. We are now on the full dose of nurofen and calpol but it takes a while to kick in and then he is fully awake, making settling him (even with a feed) very hard. He is completely knackered in the day, has refused all milk today and refusing to nap (just managed toget him off after 1/2 of rocking etc). Where is this tooth?!?!?! I'm very jealous of your tooth effie

WG - sorry that you have been having such a bad time of it. Don't want to add to random conflicting advice, but don't assume that feeding when they want at night will end in disaster. When DD was small and I went back to work I decided that I would feed her whenever she woke up at night. For a while she was waking many times a night, but gradually just gave up night feeds on her own - no big dramas with settling to sleep at all.

NJAN - re formula - DS is a little fusspot! We've discovered that formula is OK from a bottle, but not if its expressed breast milk. And at one point we found that he would drink the aptamil we offered him if it came from a pre-mixed carton, but not if we mixed it up ourselves from powder Luckily we managed to break that particular expensive habit.

Lovely to see old friends on here! Don't worry trace I didn't flounce off, just virtually never managed to log on to my computer at home and certainly not often enough to properly keep up with you all!

arti - I know exactly what you mean being sad about all the "last" things you're doing with the DD - its horrible.