Dec 08 mums - embuggerance to it all - sleep or no sleep we love our babes

[waitinggirl]

i hope people don't mind, i took the bull by the horns and did it. title a bit naff, but more important the thread exists rather than search for a better title. hope i haven't stolen anyone's thunder...

Hello Invis, how very nice to see you back again! When did you go back to work? We've been chatting about it a fair bit on here.

Kayz - yay for the iTouch but stopped crawling? My DD hasn't even started and she is a way off it I reckon No standing either, or signs of any desire to!

DaisyD - it's no fun being the Bad Cop. Your DH is being naughty!

Spiggy...that sounds exasperating...especially first thing without a restorative cup of tea. I hate tea actually but cannot function without coffee.

Row78 - that sounds rough. I read that teething pains aren't as bad after the first tooth, it's just the shock of the new, but then again, I know some of what's in these baby manuals is rubbish. Do hope things perk up for you.

PMK -yes, I don't think an authentic Bob the Builder would be a very uplifting watch. Someone DP works with employed some builders to do some work on her cottage. It was big work as the whole family needed to move out for a while - her DH works too and they have two small children, so it was quite a hullabaloo. She popped by one day to check on their progress and it was very quiet. So she went into the back garden and they were all fishing in the river which backs on to the garden....It still makes me angry to think of it. But you can't scream at them in that situation because they can then pack up their tools and leave the job half done.

So work got back to me this morning - my boss says her husband is ill and they have got house guests so she won't be coming back to me until week beginning 20th July. Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

The newspaper I write travel pieces for aren't commissioning at the moment as they have a huge backlog of travel features, so no money there either.

Ho hum. Must work harder!

Oh dear Daisy your DH is so naughty you need to get your DH to watch an episode of super nanny. DH & I watched that while I was pregnant and learnt that apart from the fact that that lady scares the bejuggers out of both of us, consistency from both parents is really important.

Kayz I was thinking what a bum that DS2 wasn't performing for your assembled families at the christening, I hope you hadn't told the inlaws he has started crawling.

I just took DS1 to gymnastics (he got his certificate and badge for passing his proficiency thing) and just before we left I re hung all the washing that I had spent the morning bringing in putting in the machine and rinsing and respining after yesterdays rain, and of course while Gymnastics was on a massive torrential downpour (we call them gully rakers where my mum lives in SE queensland) and it's even wetter than it was before I bought it all in!

LadyT and others - suddenly feel very insensitive to be whinging on about work when others are having a hard time getting back - so sorry. I realise I am lucky to be able to go back, but must say general paranoia makes me wonder how long that will last. I've only been back since 1 July, so its really too early to be quite so jaded. Mind you, if it weren't for the fact that we mostly rely on my income, I'd be tempted to do something different. It really makes me mad to see how so much experience and commitment on the part of everyone becomes completely devalued the minute you have children.

Row - I have to say, when DS is in full teething mode, the only way he'll sleep or eat is with calpol, so I wouldn't feel bad about using it. Different children are so different about this kind of stuff - we barely noticed when DD was teething, but DS either feels it more or is much louder in making his displeasure known! Or maybe he's just a man about it.

Oh just realized there is a while new page I missed.

Lady how annoying of your friends builders, cheeky sods.

Row hate to tell you this but DS1 was on and off like that, had terrible teething, til he was 2, but on the plus side he is a strapping tall and gorgeous 3 nearly 4 year old now so it does pass. I resorted to homeopathic in the end and it made life a lot better for he and I as the remedies work a lot faster, however on bad days he was having full doses of 2 remedies calpol and ibuprofen.

Hey where is WG? When does Bleak expectations start on radio4?

Hi Invisible, good to see you again (I was CatDean for ages if you don't recognise my new monicker). We're in full teething mode here, refusing milk despite dosing up with as many mainstream and alternative remedies as possible.

Row, we have a white dot too! Let's pool our energies and wish very hard and maybe they'll both have teeth by the morning. .

Maybe you need to pray to tooth fairy, I'm not sure is this her area.

Had a hissy fit at dinner but can't explain as off out to see friends, hopefully DS2 will behave as it's in Nottingham so will be 45mins away.

Apparently there is a patron saint of teeth but I've forgotten who it is! Have a good night out Veg.

Hi, I've been back at work the last few days and it hasnt been as bad as I thought, but trying to squeeze everything in the mornings and evenings is quite hard, so many bums to change etc etc. Nice to do something different though, and DS2 seems to really like the nursery. He doesnt like Hipp Organic formula milk, though will happily drink water from the same recepticle. Anyone elses babies have taste issues with different brands of formula milk ? Fortunately I can pop and breast feed him at the moment, but it might be a bit of a problem if he wont drink FM at all....

We've had no complaints with teething here, fortunately, though no nice nights either. There are definitely bumpy gums but they dont seem to bother him.

WG posted once after she came back from her hols but hasnt been back since, veggie. I hope she is OK.

And Kayz, hope you got your blood test re-sorted.

Spiggy, your post really made me laugh. Toddlers seem to think that a) you are their slave, and b) that they are being HELPFUl a lot of the time when they really arent

hello.
Has MN changed the layout or is my computer doing funny things?
And yes Veggie, where is WG?
Thank you all for your lovely words. Phoebe has been quite sleepy today and not fed great, but had a nice old feed before bed and has been asleep since 6.45 and all is quiet...I wept on my friend earlier and she said I need to focus on each day at a time and stop 'what if-ing' about September. So that's what I'll try to do.
Lucy is testing DH and I but she's had such bad sleep lately because of her cough so I think tiredness is playing a big part.
I have question for the Aussie ladies...how long does it take for a letter to get to Oz? I sent one today because my friend has just started her 6 months abroad and is in East Perth first - when will she get the letter?
I had to look after my friend's ds today - he's 5 months and is a big lad - anyway the day was fine but I now have even more admiration for those with twins! When I was getting Lu from school I put her ds in the buggy and Phoebe in the carrier and it was soooooo cute because she put her hands on the buggy handles with mine so it looked like she was helping me push!
Invisible nice to see you again. I saw you on another thread recently and thought 'I'm sure she used to be on our thread' and was going to say hi, but then got scared in case you'd left the thread in a huff or been offended or something!
I have a confession. I gave P mushed up Heinz Beans and Sausage for tea tonight She loved it
Well I have a headache so think I might go to bed now.
Night all.xxx

Very quick post as trying to work out using the itouch. I've got a bar of whole nut with my name on.
Hope you all sleep well

Trace, it looks funny on my computer as well. I don't like it

I feel like I have got not one but two Swords of Damocles hovering above my blonde bonce: what's going to happen about my job, and what's going to happen about the whole tax/Inland Revenue thing. I just can't plan until I know what's going to happen, or know whether I am going to be able to manage financially. It's more than a little worrying.

Off to do some blessings counting.

Hope you are having fun Veggie.

I'm sending out the magic teething dust...

Welcome back Invisible, its funny how there seems to be more time to post when we are working rather than when we are at home!

Trace glad that P had a good feed before bed. Really do not worry about your supply at this stage. When DD1 was 8 months I had to leave her for 24 hours and my supply was totally unaffected. In fact at 12 months I left her for 5 days and still had plenty of milk on my return. I think once your supply is established its really established!

Enjoy your iTouch Kayz they are great. Where is Summer? She has one too. Both her and WG seem to be missing in action at the moment.

Nolda it was nice to hear from you the other day. My DD is also a fan on nakedness at the mo. She often strips and then says "I am VERY naked and I like it. Its best when I am VERY naked" .

LadyT how scrap of your boss to keep you hanging before making any decisions. Make sure you are keeping records of all these probs. When are you hoping to return (if "hoping" is the right word)?

Lal did you unplug your broadband and did it make you productive? I had not realised you were back at work already. Do they allow you to work from home. If you are still going to be doing a Bill this year then don't forget to come and have a G&T on the Terrace with me .

This is my last week of maternity leave . Yesterday was the last music class I will take the girls too. Today was the last baby swimming. Tomorrow will the last baby massage... It feels horrid and I am dreading the fact that I will not see the girls Monday-Thursday. Why did I agree to that??? At least this first bit is like a trial run as I work for 2.5 weeks and then have about seven weeks off on holiday .

Hello everyone,

I'll have to be brief, I've got a ganglion, hard lump thing on my hand that's attached to a tendon. I had it ages ago and it shrunk away to almost nothing but its back. It's sore to type, ouch.

ladyT You asked about when I'm returning to work. I'll be back in September but I work from home and they've agreed I can do it part time which is grand. The downside is the contract runs out next July and the with the way things are, research funding is going to be at an all time low.

arti I'd love to see a house my grandparents lived in. Not odd at all.

trace Sorry to hear things are hard at the moment. How does P respond if you go into her but not pick her up and shush/pat? That way she knows you are there but doesn't get the boob. Even better get DH to go in - when do the school holidays start?

kayz No crawling here either!

NJAN Re formula. DD was on Heinz formula but it was getting hard to get hold of so I switched her to Aptamil. She screwed up her face the first few times so it must have a different taste.

spiggy I did chuckle at your story. How awful not to be able to have your morning tea.

Can anyone with older children tell me if I should get a playpen? Are they useful? DD isn't moving yet but I'm just mulling it over. Our house is very small and I don't want a massive thing we don't use. If anyone has any thoughts they would be much appreciated.

Jolly, I have noticed that some people on the wider Mumsnet act as though playpens are baby prisons - they are one of those many things on here that people get all antsy about (not that it will stop me getting one, probably ) - it's small here too. Sorry about your poor hand.

Arti, well I was supposed to be going back in July but because of all the shenanigans, I am not going back until mid-Sept. If they let me back. The next 12 weeks will be unpaid but I will lump it as statutory mat pay comes to an end after 40 weeks. I am sorry about your last week of maternity leave, I do feel for you. A friend said to me in an email today, 'why don't you tell work to sling their hook and just stay at home with O?' She is nearly 37 and desperate for a baby. She is also very wealthy and doesn't understand that I need to work, bless her. How was the house you visited?

NJAN - I think the different formulas do vary in taste. I use Aptamil but I used Sma recently and there is a difference in smell.

That fragrance ad with Sienna Miller is on. Gosh, it's really irritating.

Nolda your cake looked ace by the way - I think I forgot to say before.

So much for will power. I'm not back at proper work arti - but doing some freelance stuff. Have to say that in general it's really nice to spend a few hours a day doing something not to do with children. Love them as I do. Hope your return to work goes ok. As you say - only 2.5 weeks until holiday anyway. And definitely yes to drink on the terrace. Was there only the other day and thinking of poor women in labour in St Thomas' in the heat being able to see us all necking pimms in the sunshine.

Jolly I had a playpen for DS, and have put it up for DD but not used it yet. If you're not sure it will be useful can you try putting your travel cot up and filling it with toys and see if you use it before buying one? Am not sure what kind of travel cot you have but ours is a big square one which did the job until I was given a wooden one. I bought a bag of plastic balls from mothercare and DS spent many a happy hour chucking them out and onto the floor. It was invaluable for a space downstairs I could put him and I knew he was safe (so I could go to the loo/answer the door/drink coffee). But like I say I haven't used it for DD yet. I might when she gets a bit faster. I have got her in the baby walker - which is another thing that people on the wider mumsnet would flame me for. Keeps her entertained to be able to see what's going on and also out of the way of DS. I think with all of these things as long as they don't spend the whole day in them it's not a problem. And I like seeing her whizzing about. She finds it very funny and discovered today that she can pull her own toys out of the toy boxes.

Spiggy I loved your story. Although must have been a right pain to clear up. I spend quite a bit of time chipping dried weetabix off various highchairs. My life is so fabulous.

Njan glad return to work is going ok.

And LadyT keeping things crossed for you. So much more difficult to cope with uncertainty when you have a baby I think. Perhaps if you get something sorted with your work it doesn't have to be forever - and you can sort out what you do next once you've got used to being back. Sometimes these things do work out for the best. Although hard to see at the time. I second what others have said about your writing though. I'd pay good money to read it

Trace I hope your head is better. Am mightily impressed that you managed 2 babies. Which reminds me - hope gettingbiggerbird is doing ok.

Keep staying up too late once everyone else is asleep on the basis it's pretty much the only time I get on my own. Not helping my tiredness though. So should probably hie me to bed too. Night all.

hello all - thanks for missing me - feel pathetically comforted to be missed by my group of friends in the ether. been lurking. have been a bit low, but not too low to have anything specific to talk about, so have not posted. making up for it now, though. a me post and watch out for some swearing - apols for offending anyone.

vg - probably september time. will let ppl know here and on fb - dh is not one to blow his own trumpet, so i have to do it for him.

our sleep situation is absolutely awful tonight. a few days ago she started napping like a textbook baby (wake at 7ish, nap at 9 for 40 mins, midday nap for - shock,horror, an hour and a half - unheard of - then half an hour at 4.30ish, then asleep at 7). i started playing hard ball and not letting her fall asleep on the boob at night (although used as a means to feed and calm her down), and it started to work. there were 2 nights in a row i managed to put her down awake and her grizzling stopped after 5 mins and she was asleep and her first waking of the night was 4-5 hours later (after that it got to nigh on every other hour, though). one time she even self-settled after a pretty noisy wake up at 10.30. i started to get excited - maybe this was going to work, maybe she was going to get better.

then on sat we had to leave her with friends to go to this madonna concert - i have talked about it before - while it is nice to be offered vip tickets to a madonna concert, we're not fans and have rather been bullied into it and would much rather not have gone. but with 5 months notice, we felt we couldn't find an excuse not to go. so we went. madam was ok with our friends, but didn't go to sleep for them, and the night disrupted what i thought was beginning to be a good pattern of sleep. the next night she slept well and self-settled again, and then the hell started. last night i tried to let her grizzle herself to sleep, like she had done before and she ended up vomiting her entire feed up, necessitating her first ever full cotbed change. there was just so much vom, it was scary. and i realised that i hadn't listened to her crying and heard how distressed she was. i think i was taken in by the people i know who say that controlled crying works, so left her when i shouldn't have.

tonight: if i say it is now 2.30am and i have been up 6 times already, does that begin to get it across? i have given her calpol tonight for the second time in her life because i can't fucking work out what the hell is wrong with her. she has also woken up with blood over her face as she must have scratched herself. it is all fucking guesswork. she wakes, screams, i try to help her to settle without picking her up. then i realise i have to pick her up but try not to put her on the boob. then i realise she seems she is going to combust if i don't give her the boob, so i give in, crying because i feel i have failed and given in. she sleeps, i put her down and that sleep can last anything from 5 mins to 1 hour. then we start again.

people say we should move her to her own room, but i cannot imagine doing this while going from our room to hers, let alone not having a bed to sit on and lie down on.

i'm reading countless sleep books, but am unable to act on any of them because they contradict each other and in the middle of the night, quite frankly, i lose all perspective and just want some sodding sleep.

dd is such a sweetheart, but honestly... some people talk about wanting to chuck their babies out of the window when things get tough. that has some sort of edge of comedy to it. i have fantasies of holding her by hte legs and swinging and smashing her head against the wall. i know that sounds awful and i am crying as i write it, and of course i would never do it, but i do do do have these fantasies and i think to acknowledge them is important. and this is probably the only place i can say them.

dh is beginning to get upset as he cannot soothe her in the slightest - he is taking it personally and his talk is littered with comments like "you're getting bored of daddy now" and "can't wait to get away from daddy, i see", and a while back it might have been purely teasing, now it sounds like he means it. and that is upsetting me, too. because some of it is true - no one can soothe her apart from me and the boobs, but also because i need him to be strong for me and not mind that she is doing this right now.

oh, and dh has now started another job which is extremely stressful and i have realised i absorb his stress on like a sponge while feeling dreadful because i am not contributing to our finances in the slightest. oh, and i am terrified of having to start work again - i don't even have any proper work to start - i have to write some letters/emails to people asking for work which i really don't want to do. i just want to stay at home and hide there with madam. there was a networking event at the college i studied at hte other week - i took madam as a crutch. it meant everyone paid me some attention, that i could flit around the room from person to person and had a wonderful excuse to leave really early. i hid behind her and didn't have to be just myself which i am going to have to do soon.

am feeling pretty sorry for myself.

am also suspecting that i am going to have to take some time at home and stop going out during the day so much to get madam napping properly in order to see if that helps with her sleep at night. i hate the idea of cocooning myself at home and get quite panicked at the thought, but i suspect that may help in teh long run.

i can't believe i used to be one of those people who tried not to post about sleep because madam slept so well that i felt a bit embarrassed/smug about it.

oh, look it's 3am - she hasn't woken up yet this hour. well that's a turn up for the books. and now i'm so wound up i can't get to sleep. arse.

rant rant rant. bet you're glad i have't posted for a while???

blimey - that looks so long. sorry. won't blame anyone for not reading that. apols

Oh WG your poor thing. I feel your pain I really do. I've been up since 3 having been up 5 times between 9 and 3. Full scale screaming matches with dh, wanting to throw dd out of the window....yup. I don't know what do say because I don't know what to do. We chucked her into the spare room and it got beetter at first but now it is just as bad but I have nowhere to cuddle up with her. I too turn to breasts,in fact I'm up because I tried sending dh in to settle her so she is now too wide awake to feed back to sleep.

Interestingly, the wantig to throw the baby out of the window thing is a remnant of our survival of the fittest instinct. Much as some animals eat/kill their babies, if the baby is threatening our survival some part of us wants rid of it.

Morning,

WG I really feel so sorry for you. I wish I knew something that would just make it easier for you. I to have had those feelings of throwing DS2 out of a window etc. It's hard when they don't want to sleep.

We've been up since half 5. Got woken up by DS1 being sick. We think that he drank his milk that DH was meant to take out of his room last night.

I've been practising my theory test online and keep failing!!

Hope you are all well.

WG: what a rough time you are having lovey. I have no advice, other than it sounds like you are taking on an awful lot of worries when some of them could be ditched or shunted off onto others - please look after yourself. And rant on here as much as you need to, we've all needed the basket over the past, ooh, over a year and I remember many a time when you have been there for the rest of of us . Teething is beyond grim, we haven't really hit it yet but I'm bracing myself.

Thank you for the kind words on toilet training, the thing is DS1 will happily use the toilet or potty, both at home and when out and about, but he's been going and then wetting himself 20 minutes later. Which I'm pretty sure is a control/attention thing. At least in pull-ups I can ignore and deal, so hope we can move back to pants eventually.

Am also having a bit of a ridiculous wobble about DS2 being behind , he is one of the youngest on the thread but he's not doing a lot of things DS1 was by this age, he's still not rolling, is sitting (just) but a bit wobbly, no teeth, only just getting the hang (!) of clutching things... I'm being paranoid, aren't I? He is chatting away and eating like mad, so that's one thing I suppose. DH asked me if I thought DS2 was 'a bit simple' which was mainly a joke but I do have some vague worrying thoughts, mainly cos we had some issues on the prenatal scans (soft markers). I guess it will be a long while before any issues (if there are any become obvious so Must Stop Worrying.

Sun has gone in again . Though it is cooler at night which is a great help for the DSs.

Spot: will email you about a visit: I haven't forgotten!

DS2 can't sit at all yet. He just topples over.

Indith and WG

How I wish I could do or say something to help. All I can do is pore over my books here, hoping against hope there is an answer, but I am sure you have read and heard it all before. It's been said so many times but this lack of sleep is torture, pure and simple. I am glad you've got this outlet on here because remember, everyone on here is either going through similar or is bursting with sympathy.

WG, your point about saying people say controlled crying works - certainly, it's treated by society as a panacea and leaving aside the rights and wrongs of it, I think the fact is it just doesn't work with some babies. That's how it seems to me, anyway.

You have given your babes a brilliant start by bf but I guess that to them you aren't just their wonderful mothers but are simultaneously food and also comfort/sleep settlers. This must be a HUGELY powerful magnet for a baby and being far too little to differentiate between needs and wants...they must think to themselves, in their bleary unformed way, "I don't know if I want food, or whether I am overtired and can't settle myself, or, ooh, I feel a bit lonely now I come to think of it. But if I just holler for Mum she will cover all of these things or know what I want even if I don't know myself. I think I will just chance it and keep crying until something good happens. Mum? Muuuuuuum? Waaaaah! Waaaah! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!" etc. I think other bfers on here are going to have to advise you on how to get past this one. There must be ways. There absolutely must be.

I spotted what could be a good bit of advice in one of the books - please feel free to tell me to shut the huck up though. It says, "it is difficult to see exactly what is happening when you get bogged down in what seems to be a neverending battle over sleep. Your own tiredness often prevents you from seeing things rationally or having the strength to try changing the pattern. Start by keeping a timed diary of every single instance of night waking, what your responses are and what the child does. Does this for AT LEAST a week or two before deciding on your strategy." If nothing else you will have something to show the the wee foghorn dear child later in life. Preferably just before they are about to have children of their own.

It then goes on to say that "without realising it parents are often rewarding, and thus encouraging, the very behaviour they want to change. Each parent must agree between themselves exactly what is to happen and not waver and not criticise the other. Parents exhausted by endless broken nights are often too shattered to try a new approach. Initially it is true that trying to change your child's behaviour could make for more difficult nights, but you need to give each new approach 5-6 days before abandoning it. The key is in parents' own determination. Being unsure or hesitant or inconsistent will only show the child he has to try even harder to get his own way."

Like I say, this is just yet more stuff from a book so chuck it in the metaphorical bin if you think it's a load of bunkum, but being a logical old stick it seems more appealing to me than some of the other stuff in books, which seems quite pat and annoying. And you can work out what might work with your specific baby, rather than just A.N.Other baby. HOWEVER, I do see that when you are already tortured almost the point of physical illness, in the night you will just want to do anything, anything, just to get a little respite.

WG, you are doing what I do and not only looking at everything all at once but also whilst - what's the opposite of rose tinted spectacles? - sh*t tinted spectacles. You need to break everything down otherwise you will end up feeling like chucking yourself in the canal. The way to get anything done is to take a baby step towards it per day. I am not saying progress is swift like that but it IS effective.

1. Write one letter or email per day towards getting another job. No more, no less.
2. Don't worry about not contributing financially. You are doing other important stuff. And if the roles were reversed you would do the same for your DH in a heartbeat, right?
3. Naps in the day. Why not compromise by, say, going out in the morning, but making sure you are always back in the afternoons for naps. Or vice versa.

I doubt any of this has helped and I hope it hasn't grated. Just wanted to say I am thinking of you and willing it to change. And now my own cheeky monkey is awake so I must go...I have probably cross posted with loads of people.

WG Oh hon, I wish I could offer some words of wisdom to make everything okay for you. Do not feel guilty about wanted to throw your baby/hit the baby. I have had that thought on numerous occasion in the middle of the night when DS just won't sleep.

You sound like you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself re: finding work and DH's new job. You are important to and you must put your needs as a priority too. I hope you get some sleep soon, even a little will help to make you feel a bit better.

effie ds is one of the eldest babies on this thread and has only just learnt to sit on his own really. He rolls one way but not the other and no signs of crawling nor do we have teeth. They are all different DD was doing much more at this age.

Oh, and Effie - DD is one of the oldest on the thread and

• she can sit up but only very recently and is pre

tty wobbly

• she has one visible tooth and another cut through the gum this week. First tooth was a week or two before she turned 7 months.

• no interest in crawling, standing, only rolling quite recently!

She is a happy and babbly child. I think DP frets, in fact he asks me once a week whether or not I think she is 'backward', but I just laugh at him. They all develop at different rates! I noticed this with my two nephews and they are both bright now.