December 2008 Coven - white light and basket cases

[EffiePerine]

Seeing as LadyT broke the thread...

and ZJ I love your dream about Mr Clean!

Trace I think that is just normal, well I hope it is. If you think about it the way you are thinking is similar to the way you do time management at work, but rather than over one shift it's over a week (or more). I have to do it that way otherwise I would never do anything. As long as you flexible and work around naps (still amazed at how much I can get done in 45mins) I think it's fine. DH can't do it and it shows, not just at home but in his work. But at the end of the day I guess as Tilly says both our methods get the job done. But I have to say what is it with dads and not eating at the table?

Trace, Spot, Veggie, you have written exactly what I feel, especially about your list in your head - mine has stuff in it like what we are having for dinner today and tomorrow, when i have to start cooking it, what toys I need to get out as they havent played with them for a while etc etc. I therefore find it very frustrating living with someone who only seems to have one thing on their mind at a time, and if they need ANYTHING, ask me first rather than look for it - ie "where is the medicine", "have you seen the wipes?". DH gets very annoyed if I give unhelpful responses like "Where they were last time", but doesnt understand how annoying I find it that I have to store that information all the time, whereas he can just forget it. And he also waits for meals, bedtimes etc to be initiated by me, which is a bit tiring.
I wondered if this was my fault somehow, but I dont hover over him when he cooks/changes nappies for that reason, as I want him to be able to do these things without asking me...

Tricky, and worst case scenario, DH ends up being the "fun" parent and I am the slavedriver. Not that this has happened yet, though.

Rant alert. Feel free to skip over. Am so fed up of always coming on here to moan.

DD woke at 11.30 last night as usual, screaming and unhappy, managed to feed her back to sleep. Several wakings more during the night, each time onto the boob in our bed, then up at 6am. Sop all in all she's had 3.5 hours, then 6 hours broken sleep. Has been awake since then. Looks fecking knackered, reasonably enough. Have her in the sling, lullaby music on, encouraging her to suck her thumb but she just won't go. I've been watching her for signs of sleepiness since 8am, immediately tried shushing and putting in the cot, in the puschair back and forth, feeding her - fell asleep but as soon as I tried to put her down, woke up again. I just have no fecking idea what to do. I want to be able to enjoy my baby, not spend my time trying to get her to sleep so she's not a moody madam.

And DH emails to say he spoke to one of his work colleagues about her lack of sleeping, apparently "she had a really easy time with both her boys after weaning them onto solids at 4 months". because yeah, all babies are exactly the same aren't they? Won't go into the long long cross email I sent him back but suffice to say it had me in tears that he could even think of suggesting it would be that easy.

oh and the NCSS, we have it, but also her book on napping, and it's confused me even more. One book says to get your baby to nap, use a similar routine to bedtime (quiet time, darkened room, sleepy music ect). The other one says make nightime sleep different to daytime sleep as otherwise they'll get confused. Play with baby in the cot so they're comfortable with it as a place to sleep, but at the same time make their sleeping environment different to their daytime one. I just give up frankly.

we've got baby swim in an hour and a half. If she's not napped by then she'll have been awake for almost 6 hours, and if she does fall asleep, what do I do? Let her nap and cancel the lesson (second week in a row cos of her cough last time)?

With the day time night time napping ds1 would only nap
in his pushchair or a on a bunch of pillows downstairs with me where it was all noise and light. Ds2 on the other hand prefers napping in his cot with the room as dark as possible so basically yes they are all different. And 2 big fingers to your DHs colleague I tried the whole weaning early thing and it made no difference to the night waking and made day times a nightmare too.

I don't know how to say this without sounding all positive reinforcement-y, but I think your doing a great job your sticking to your principal of listening to DD and trying to do what you know is right for her. A baby that doesn't sleep through at four months does not equate to bad mothering (well I hope not as if so I'm a very bad mother) and yes you can try different techniques etc but this belief some people have that it is a problem that needs fixing just ads more stress and is completely incorrect. One thing I will ad that helped a little with longer breaks between feeds was sitting up to feed rather than feeding lying down. You may already be doing this if so ignore me but it helped a little with ds1 but not for the needing the boob to settle though, just made go longer between night feeds.

veggie, thanks for that, you made me cry she's currently asleep having fed for 5 minutes, tried to take the nipple out of her mouth and you'd think i'd stabbed her. we've tried feeding her sitting up to get more down her but she's soooo sensitive to being moved off the boob to down on the bed. It doesn't make much sense as she's fine going to sleep on her own at 7.30 but any other time of day she gets so cross and needs lots of help. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of naps where she's gone off by herself without needing nipple or sling or pushchair.

this too will pass, this too will pass, this too will pass!

JJ rant away. That's partly why we're here surely. I just wanted to send you my love. veggie is right - you sound as if you're doing a great job - you're trying to listen to your baby. will type more later (am trying to feed DD) but in scheme of things missed swimming lesson not such a big deal if she does drop off - but spend every minute she's asleep doing something that makes you feel better.

sorry x-posted - but contradicting everything I said about there not being a trick have you tried spot's white noise? here

jump, big [hugs] to you. My sil weaned both her dcs at 4mo & swears that's what we need to do as ds2 is such a big baby . As veggie says, we need to do what's right for our babies, not for theirs.

JJ sorry for the hard time you're having
I had a problem with ds for a short time doing no napping at all (well 20 mins here and there) but then constantly needing feeding. hate to say it, but with him it all changed when he was getting extra from either FF or EBM as I knew what he was getting, and he could get full up each feed. Before that, i think he was just snacking, and as you say - it means you have NO life at all, and start to resent them. If her weight is fine - doesn't mean she isn't still snacking. If my ds fusses with the bottle etc at all - I always change him, burp etc just let him be verticle for a bit, and he usually will want to finish the whole 200ml before very long in the same hour, then he naps solidly, and is actually a pleasure when awake! Agreed though, no one baby is the same, so really only what worked in my case fwiw.

Hi JJ, so sorry you're having such a hard time of it, and I have nothing but admiration from you, I admit in the early days when T screamed for 10 hours a dat solid I was absolutely desperate for "tricks" and would fall for whatever someone said worked for their baby. More often than not it wouldn't work and I'd have spend loads of time/money/emotional energy on something and end up feeling disappointed after being so sure I was being told "the solution". So I really do think it's fantastic what you're doing and I only wish I was as strong as you. I too have read TNCSS, along with millions of other books, but the whole sleeping/feeding thing seems to be so subjective. I even tried She Who Must Not Be Named for a while but it just wasn't working for T (he refuses to eat in the morning, for eg, which throws off the routine significantly) and felt really low as everyone I know who's tried it swears it revolutionised their life, but not chez spot.
The only thing I would suggest (but LaL's beaten me to it, commission's in the post ) is the white noise, but only as it takes a few minutes to download, there are various noises to try, it's free, and if it doesn't work you've spent max half an hour. I wouldn't normally suggest stuff as I know how frustrating it is when people give advice and you get all hopeful and it doesn't work, but hopefully this wouldn't take too long. If you do try it, I'd suggest turning it up really loud, we used to have it industrial strength blasting away next to his cot (surely against the geneva convention), and he still has it every lunchtime to nap, but much quieter. He'd sleep without it, but only for 45 mins, the noise helps him to sleep for 2 hours. Sorry if you've had enough suggestions!
Thanks all for the reassurance re- managing bubs and DHs, I think I will have a talk to DP tomorrow about it (he's out all day and night) as I'm going to suggest that one weekend he manages everyhing and asks me for help when he wants it and see what happens.
Am listening to 80s album to make me feel more cheerful (bad weather and even I can't indulge in a drop of namesake until the sun's over the yard arm) - King's Love and Pride has just come on and is making me smile .
Oh, does anyone have any tips for coughs and colds? We're picking up saline drops from the chemist later but it's more his cough I'm concerned about, sounds so phlegmy, but I guess he's too little for any medicine for it?

jump, sorry you are having a hard time. As others say, you are just doing what she needs. DS1 would only nap on me (i used to sway, holding him, - and then sit down when he was asleep), so I sympathise. When he had his first nap on his own (at 5 months), I did not know what to do with myself.
DS2 will happily go to sleep anywhere, even on his own without tears. So it depends on what the child needs and its nothing you are doing. If its any consolation things did get better with DS1 around 5-6month mark.

My personal view is that feeling tired makes babies feel rotten but at this age they cant understand what they need to do to feel better and confuse tiredness with hunger etc. As they get older I think they learn to understand their own bodies a bit better.

Don't worry, your baby loves you and you will come through this together.

Spot - let me know how that goes with your DH. Maybe I should go out for the day and leave him to do everything, from cooking to bathing, to cleaning and see how he goes

not/spot leaving dh's to fend for themselves for the day is the way to go. Be prepared however, dinner won't be made, house won't be tidied/cleaned etc because they'll have been too busy looking after the babies

Leaving DHs is a great idea, DH was always quite aware that wasn't all sitting around the house doing nothing and has always been quite a helpful hands on daddy but even he got a shock when he had to look after DS1 when he was about 15months old for a whole day. When I got home he looked shattered and all he had done was just look after Ds1. The first thing he said was 'how do you keep the house tidy as well?'. That was at 15 months so none of the constant feeds and trying to work our if he needed a nap either (amazingly by that stage they have naps at the same time everyday, sometimes hard to comprehend at this stage).

Also JJ with DS1 as I said he used to always sleep in his pushchair, I was so ashamed that I was unable to get him to sleep in his cot during the day, I thought that was one of the basics of child care. For ages I didn't tell anyone outside of my NCT group (we were all a bit mish mash with what we did and very non competitive and all thought we were all equally completely useless) then I mentioned it to a work colleague who I thought was the epitome of the efficient mother but who was also a very good friend who I thought would not judge me and could maybe give some advice, and do you know what she said..."oh X was like that, I just went with it and figured at least it got me out for a walk everyday". That was a little turning point for me as I suddenly realized there weren't really any right or wrong ways just what worked. Now in hindsight, with DS1 being a very well adjusted boy who sleeps well in his own bed I can see that it eventually works out, but at the time I thought I was hopeless, I didn't realize that it was just what worked for him.

Oh and sorry I made you cry JJ, I'd rather make you a mice strong coffee.

Veg, that is so true, T only sleeps in his pushchair in the day, no idea why he will sleep in the cot and night and not in the day but am a lot less stressy about it than I was. In fact, am making the most of it by going out now to a Pushy Mothers class! Expect tales of broken ankles and groin strain on my return...
PMK, I now do that with T and his bottles and works so much better. I used to think that if he hadn't finished his bottle after 30 mins he wasn't hungry but now just realise he likes to take his time and will take an hour to do a 200ml bottle, with lots of gaps for play etc. I feel so with myself for being so easily influenced and so with the people who peddle the childcare books as if there is one solution and all babies can be :made" to eat/slep at the same time. Some will, some won't but I always felt like shit that mine wouldn't and it was something I'd done...
JJ, Summer, NJAN - I'm spending the weekend at my mum's who lives in Ely, am driving down from London Friday lunchtime, was wondering if I should stop off in Camb for some coffee if you're around? Or if any of you fancy a jaunt into Ely on Sat at all? Better go and shake my booty, back later.

jj sorry you're so exhausted and exasperated. Please don't apologize for ranting. I think we all take it in turns .
Veggie it's interesting about your dd1 sleeping best in a light, busy room. Phoebe has had her best ever nap at my parents' house in the front room with cars, buses and trains going past the window - she slept 2 hours there whereas at home she's rarely asleep more than 30 mins!
Well it seems I'm an emotional wreck today! I thought I was cool and calm but as soon as the first person at the under 1s group asked how I was I burst into tears and couldn't stop for the whole 1.5 hours . The HV there (not my normal HV) had a Chat with me and said basically there's no point in me trying to change P's feeds re times, ebm bottles, cups, expressing whatever while I am so knackered. She said to make a real effort to rest this week and drink more fluids when I'm feeding and not rush around doing jobs while P sleeps, then when I'm more rested, P might settle a bit and if not then I'll be in a better state to start tackling the issues rationally. Made sense. I managed to stop crying by the time I got to the check out at Asda! A friend from the baby group is on her way round so I can have a little nap while she plays with P before I have to go back to school for Lu. Bless her.

ALso there's a new PND support group started up near me and I was wondering about going - not because I'm unwell - but as a listening ear kind of person - just after what some of you ladies have said in the past to me about using my experience. I'm a bit scared though and the flyers have no contact numbers so I'd have to just turn up - and I don't know who's running it and even if they'd want me there. Any thoughts?

Hello everyone

We are back from our anniversary break in the Cotswolds. It was lovely. Cowley Manor is stunning, our bedroom was massive with a bathroom larger than our living room at home! Both girls had their cots in the bathroom so we had the room to ourselves and everynight we used baby listening and had a nice meal and drinks in the bar. Every morning they gave DD2 a bucket of bread to feed the ducklings on their lake and then we swam in the lovely pool. In short it was perfect. Then to top it off DD2 only woke once last night which is the first time in months.

JJ - so sorry that you are having a hard time with the sleeping. As others have said I think it is clear you are doing brilliantly and are a very caring and attentive Mum. One day the sleep thing will click and this will all seem like a distant memory. I think it was you who was contemplating formula before bed. Try what you need try, but I thought I would share that with DD2 formula before bed makes her wake more . I was so disappointed to find that but it seems she finds it much harder to digest and gets wind and the wind wakes her up every hour or so! I guess it really does just prove that all babies are different.

Spot and others with non-cot napping babies - neither of my DCs have napped in cots. I love it. I can do what I want while they sleep. If I want to be home I park the cot int eh garden. If I want to shop or go out for coffee I can. I am not sure I would want a cot napping baby!

Trace - I am doing that Breakthrough Generations breast cancer study too. I signed up about three years ago and did the questionnaire and blood tests. It really is worthwhile. They follow you up for more blood and updates every few years but it is no hassle at all. I would highly recommend it to anyone.

Right, I was going to do a proper catch-up but DD2 is getting cross and needs me to blow some raspberries on her tummy. Her fav trick at the mo. Back later.

Arti you don't want a cot napping baby I much prefer the pushchair napping kind. I'm considering taking DS2 out in the pushchair each day when he is getting sleepy to kind of train him into pushchair sleeping. The idea of always having to be at home when it is nap time seems like a nightmare. With DS1 I was so much more mobile. He is starting to sleep quite well in the chariot but it is quite smooth. Maybe I'll just take him out in that.

Oh my word I have no idea how I am still functioning.

Dd (who is in a cosleeper sidecar cot thingy so basically an extension of our bed so she doesn't get jumped on by ds when he gets into our bed too) has decided that waking every hour just isn't enough for her and is now waking every half hour or so. Joy. Mind you she is teething (my I'd forgotten how much dribble these small folk produce), has a cold (I had it first, it was a bad one, hope she doens't feel as bad as me) and has today broken out into a delightful viral rash that ds had on Sat. Ds was a pain in the bum and clearly felt rubbish for a couple of days before the rash came out so I assume dd has felt much the same so I can't really blame her for waking so often but I hope it ends soon!

Tilly my mum used to take ds into bed with her when he was small (actually I think she still does if he goes to stay!). At firt I found it a little odd but was grateful for the sleep and now I quite like it, they have a very good relationship and he is beside himself with joy when he sees my parents but is mildly perplexed when he sees MIL so I'm inclined to see it as a good thing.

Well done MrTilly

Kayz glad you had a good birthday and that ds is not scared for life over horses

Bottles, dd has joined the bottle club. She takes a TT closer to nature one. It is the only one I've tried her with. I decided that after spending money on various different ones with ds that he never took and I gave away I couldn't be arsed. I left her with dh while I went ot Rainbows (only 2 hours, I fed her before I left so didn't relly matter too much if she refused it) and all hell broke loose and I ended up going home to feed her and only just made it back for the end of the meeting so I offered every day after that, just did it myself rahter than the rigmarole of getting dh to take her out to do it. It worked much better as I just did it at times she normally feeds well and eventually she stopped playing with it and chomping on it and worked out how to feed from it and took a coupl eof oz then one day she took 4 oz. That is still her max but now she is relilable I figure that I can leave her. I left her last week for Rainbows, she didn't much like it and was very cranky and dh says she cried a lot but she took the milk. I think if I left her over 2 feeds she would just settle down to it through hunger.

Naps. Dd is great at these. ds only slept in a sling or pushchair so I had to go out for all his naps but she does both which is great She normally has a sleep in cot about an hour after getting up, a sleep out in the morning then 2 hours in cot after lunch as ds also naps then so we are usually home. I love it!

jj, trace, anyone else feeling low, big un MNery hugs

Haven't got very long as got back from Rouen late last night and then I am off to London tonight for supper, but I wanted to say to poor old JJ, I am so sorry you are going through the mill like this. It WILL pass, and soon, too, I should think; though it probably doesn't help to hear that now. I think the great variety in reponses about where babies sleep and so on proves there is just no science or logic to any of this as the babes are all so different. It's maddening, isn't it? DD sleeps in our room (she won't have a room of her own until we move to the new house in the autumn) and was in a moses basket until last week when we finally got her a cot (which she seems a bit freaked out by). She has slept from midnight to anything from 7.30-8.30 since she was about 14 weeks. She then gets a nap in the morning and a nap in the afternoon, ideally, and then put to bed for the evening at about 7. We wake her at 11.30 for a last feed. On the whole, though, she isn't keen on sleeping in the day any more. JJ, just think - however you get through the remainder of this time, hard as it is, remember, it's temporary. Just hang in there as best as you can. You are doing brilliantly. Just try everything and keep trying it.

Rouen was dry at least, with sunny intervals! It was all very lovely...easy on Eurotunnel - drive on, stay in your car for half an hour and hey presto, one is in La belle France!

PMK - showjumping - it was a compliment

Arti - your trip sounds lovely! We always take DD out in the evenings when we eat away (she sleeps in the carseat) and I always feel like a slightly bad mother somehow...a listening service would be good.

Spot - 24 hours away from you should be fine - I won't tell you how old DD was when we first left her overnight - and she was absolutely fine.

Tilly - I know what you mean about your Mum sleeping with your DS2 - I wouldn't mind my Mum doing anything but my MiL baths with my DD and I am REALLY not keen on this at all but don't feel I can say anything. Well done to your DH!

JB - I used to use a plug in electric steriliser when I went away but have recently discovered sterilising bags from John Lewis, which are amazing! They work with cold water and you hang them in the bathroom.

Syb - great about the schools!

WG, Summer, and indeed Bisou - I always forget that your DCs are exactly a month YOUNGER than mine. Quite a lot at this stage I suppose.

This is all very rushed, but I must dash off to the capital. Veggie, how is your mastitis today? Love to you all, girls.

Jump, I just feel that what I said above was inadequate. I do wish I could say something to help. Oh, DD went for nigh on 18 hours on Thursday with barely a nap - she woke up early, 6.30 or something, and kept on like the Duracell bunny until midnight or so. Admittedly that is a freak, but she will sometimes go for hours and hours in the day, and I let her get on with it. Gloves up, sweetie.

Ds2 naps in his cot or pushchair which I found so much easier. ds1 used to nap in the pushchair but stopped around 18mo & would only sleep in the cot which was a bit of pain. Am hoping ds2 doesn't follow in his brother's footsteps.

Indith, I'm feeling a little better about my mum & ds2 now thanks! I can understand why she did it, just up until Sat she's always going on about how she thinks dcs sleep better in their own beds. But I think she realises how easier it is to have them in with you!

Arti, sounds like a lovely weekend, glad you all enjoyed yourselves

JJ - poor you - you sound like a great mum and not sleeping is the worst worst thing, which puts a dampner on everything else. we are also having a regression on the sleep thing and it is making me doubt myself so much. be kind to yourself and listen to everyone here who have had previous experiences. i have found it so helpful to realise there isn't a right or a wrong way to do things, just different ways and at this stage, anything which helps.

arti - your weekend away sounds wonderful - how brilliant!

veggie - isnt' it funny how we all think we are failing in some way when we aren't doing the "right" thing, and a remark from someone else can put it all into perspective. i, too, was out this morning in the pouring rain with the pushchair trying to coax madam to have a sleep. she did, eventually, but i do feel like an idiot having to do it in the rain. last week's sun was wonderful, and made it a pleasure - this week may well be a different story.

madam is now still napping in her moses basket - an hour and a half now - she has done a nap this long in the afternoon a sum total of 3 times in her 4 months, 2 days of life so far. why why why????????? why today? why not yesterday? so confused. have got loads of sleep books out of the library this morning - i am getting myself worked up about this sleep thing, i know i am. also, i am becoming increasingly reliant on the whole feeding to sleep thing, especially during the day, which means no one else can ever get her to nap during the day. bugger.