Dec 08- Must keep chocolate & cheerfulness near, teething time is nearly here!

[pmk1]

Right.... back to post the link now!

You lot make me sooooo with your incredible sleeping babies. Last night was a good night for us: down at 6:30, 10pm dreamfeed (which isn't working so we're going to scrap it soon), 11:30, 1am, 4am, 5:30am...

However DD2 has been a giggly joy and delight today and has NAPPED so I am reasonably optimistic the four weeks of four-month growth spurt MAY be coming to an end...

(I have now totally jinxed it, haven't I?)

DH and Mum have sorted themselves out today and I'm getting TWO nights off this week .

Trace: have a big hug from me. DS2 has been having long periods of the old 2 hr wakings, one thing that does seem to help (when I remember) is to change his nappy at the 10/11pm waking, which wakes his up a bit more so he feeds a bit longer. Then he will often go for 3-4 hours instead of 2 which makes all the difference. Feel free to slap me if you've tried this!

DS1 woke 2 hourly every night without fail, except during a growth spurt when it was 1/1.5 hours. It is v v hard

Glad they have seen sense Verso (or had it beaten into them )

pmk - we brought bathtime forward to 6.30 or even 6pm if meltdown was happening (or in anticipation of the clocks going forward). seems to have worked - she wakes normally only once, anything from 12.30-4.30, but v occasionally twice during the night. she then wakes any time from 6.15 - 8.15am. hope that helps.

apols to those with less sleep than this.

Hello everyone,

JJ DD gets up 6.45 at the earliest - I'm sure that waking is due to DH and his blasted smooze button activation, I won't even start ranting about that ! It really doesn't make any difference to her morning waking when she goes to bed. As someone said, it is worth a night time waking just to have the evenings off. I love her to bit but having a few hours to myself in the evening is a relief especially after a difficult day.

spot DD is doing the same thing, re waking up but not eating till later. I'm sure she could drop her night feed too. Are you going to give it a go? I'm not sure I want the disturbed nights trying to fob her off with her dummy yet.

pmk Very cute pics! Re the nappy changing. I leave DD's nappy all night as she doesn't mind sitting in her own filth . You could try getting s 'lock the wetness away' type nappy, if there is such a thing! I am struggling to stop the nappy soaking through her clothes so if anyone can recommend a super 'suck it all away' nappy, do let me know.

Hatty Hello! Great to hear that your girls are well.

nolda I love the story of you drinking maderia in church!

major at the biting. That's just terrible.

No Verso you haven't jinxed it. Think positive. I really hope things continue to get better.

PMK - I can't claim credit for those sleep theories alas. I read a lot of books on sleep by people like Dr Richard ferber and Marc Weissbluth. Some of it goes against our natural instincts. It took DH and I a while before we realised that, say, keeping a toddler up until 8 or 9 won't make them sleep in in the morning. Often they will wake the same time or earlier - and just be joyously sleep deprived!!

We struggled too with the idea of the kids being in bed before DH got home - but in the end came to the view that their rest and brain development (there are theories that pre-midnight sleep is the most restorative and necessary for small children) came first. It is a tough one though. DH gets to do the 10.30/11 feed though.

We are bad parents though and don't change DD's bum at 10.30 (I do it last thing at the 7 feed ie just before I pop her down) and doesn't seem to bother. I think we did change DD1 and DS though (its a third child thang alas...)

Effie Thanks for the hug. I might try the nappy change thing. I'm thinking I might try to let her cry a little because I leap out of bed when she cries so as not to disturb DH, but I wonder whether she needs to feed so much. Am planning to try to leave her a bit but not till the Easter hols because then DH will be off work so I don't mind stealing his sleep. Not sure how it'll work or how I'll do it - I've never managed to leave her more than 4 minutes! That sounds pathetic when I write it down but in practice it feels for ever.
Sorry to be negative. I am a positive person and adore P, and am truly happy that she's so smiley and thriving so well, it's just I've been feeding 2 hourly for 16 weeks now and I'm wondering when it will change.
Am having a cuppa and a Mint Aero then I'm off to bed.
hope the babes behave for us all tonight. xxx

I don't let DS2 cry at all in case he wakes DS1... I do leave him to chunter a bit but not more than a few mins at a time.

Hope you have a better night tonight Trace, or at least plenty of sleep between times

Cross-posted there...

Oh trace, you are not doing anything wrong, it is just that P likes to eat little and often and not gulp down huge meals like some other babies. Please don't get upset. Remember our thread motto - this too shall pass.

Sorry to hear about the eczema, and P's horrible reaction to the cream. Have you tried hydramol? DD was given various lotions and potions of that brand by the HV including stuff for the bath for her skin. We used it for the first time tonight and I got in with her. My skin is nice and soft now.

verso Hurrah for 2 nights off!

Got to go, to use effie's phrase, laptop wars again

trace you deserve a medal to have been doing 2 hourly feeding for 16 weeks!! You are such a star - as is everyone having non-sleeping/frequent feeders. I know we are lucky - and it is just that, luck. Sorry P;s skin is so sore - poor pet. L just was prrescribed Epaderm too as she has excema just like her big sis. Hope P's heals quick.

Wow - no kidding about the incredible sleeping babies! December 2008 babies seem to be great sleepers overall (mine not included), or maybe I am just jaded after lurking on the Sleep thread.

We do bath at 6:00 (meltdowns if later), feed, then asleep by 6:45 or 7:00. We have tried the dreamfeed but he seems to treat it as a bonus feed (if boob is on offer, he's taking it!) and still wakes at 2:00....then 4:00, then 6:00 for the day. Last night we tried no dreamfeed and he woke at 12:45, 4:00 and 7:00 for the day. This counts as a very very good night for us.

Well, except for the 3 weeks when we were on holiday in Canada (when he was 9-11 weeks old) when he went to sleep at 7:00, woke at 4:00 for a feed and went straight back to sleep until 7:00 or 7:30.

Why does he giveth and then taketh away???

I have spent hours analysing what was different in Canada but can't figure it out -- the only thing I can think of is that I was indulging in more "cheerfulness" than usual on holiday so maybe he was drunk for 3 weeks?! Kidding...sort of...

Someone was asking about dummy weaning - we have successfully gotten rid of the dummy at night. Cold turkey. Some nights there are 10 minutes or so of complaining and shouting before he falls asleep, but generally he is so tired he doesn't miss it. Tried cold turkey during the day too but this did not work at all -- he is a terrible napper. So dummy is in full use for naps, in the pram, etc., but off limits at night.

Sorry girls just dont have the time at the mo to post properly.

Just had a quick skim lovely to hear all about the sleeping babes but I am with Trace last night went as follows down at 7 up at 10 again at 12 then again at 3 and 5 then up at 6. Am absoloutely f*ing knackered plus DS1 is being extra evil special at the mo making for not much fun. This too will pass count to 10 and pass the wine.

Kayz daisy sounds like lovely days out.

Really want to post more put the ironing pile has now reached the ceiling so must crack on.

well after my last post at about 8pm I quickly went off to give him a feed and put him down (even though a bit late) and total destruction occured!! Explosives from both ends.... all up and down his back... through 2 layers! Dog trying to run off with poo filled sleepsuits - nice. He had been really irritable and I thought over tired, but now I think it was that yes AND wind! I spent half an hour cleaning him and me up and now he is asleep with his sheep I will feed him again when we go to bed and see what happens tomorrow.
Thanks for nappy update Turnip I will try and leave it unless it feels really wet... I already use the Aloe Vera one's and loads of cream and he is sometimes ok with it - let you know!
Glad you all liked the Aussie pics! I was very proud DH wanted to put his bottle in a "VB stubby cooler" (beer cooler / Veggie will understand!) but I had to sraw the line!

trace - Feel free to ignore the following if you have already tried lots of things re: 2 hourly feeds and just need sympathy at this stage! You certainly deserve lots of sympathy....it is punishing. DS was on 2-hourly feeds until very recently (during the day definitely, he normally did one longer stretch at the beginning of his night sleep, but then 2 hourly again after the first night waking.....I would literally weep when I would look at the clock and see 11:45 for the first night waking because I would know it was back to 2 hourly from there).

What has worked - a bit - for us is spacing out the feeds during the day. I was so used to him feeding every 2 hours that I think anytime he peeped around the 2 hour mark, I was feeding him. I started trying to distract him a little bit at the 2 hour mark - even for 5 minutes - trying to stretch to 2.5-3 hours between feeds in the day. I was surprised at how easy it was. I think he was very ready to go longer but I was interpreting every whinge around 2 hours as hungry. He now feeds better at each feed too because he is more hungry. It seems to be helping at night, so that after the first night waking he is going 3 hours (or even a bit more) before waking again.

This may be totally different than your situation though!

I really feel for you....with 2 hourly wakings in the night you may as well not sleep at all because just as soon as you fall asleep, there they are peeping again. Big hugs as I have been there and it is terrible!

Hello just caught up but can't think of what I was going to add. Except MOM well done on the dummy weaning I'm too dependant on it at the moment. A friend has told me it's best to have them completely off it by a year.

PMK funny on the stubby idea.

Oh and MM I was confused I thought it was your ds1 he bit. I am appalled she didn't say anything you poor little man. One of ds1s friends always hits him when he gets frustrated he gets in trouble for it and it does stress his mother out but I am worried what effect it has on my ds1. Lately he has been talking about how he doesn't like that his friend hits him. He doesn't understand why he wants to do it to him. I worry that having someone he likes hit him will have a bad effect on him either his little self esteem or in the long term in later friendships. Does that make sense? I don't know whether I should say something to his mum. His father doesn't seem that bothered by it and sometimes I think they think our ds1 is a bit of a woos for crying when he is hit. It makes DH quite annoyed as he doesn't like ds1 being hit all the time either.

Effie I laughed at your bra hanging out of your coat, and now I?ve got tears rolling down my face at the ladies ?in case you didn?t know? comment and the thought that you might have actually made a fashion decision to hang a bra off your coat!

Welcome back spot, glad you had a lovely holiday. What great news about your sister, my fingers are crossed she has a smooth and enjoyable pregnancy. I found a baby sunscreen hidden on the bottom shelf in Boots, I can?t remember which brand it is, but it said ?baby? instead of 'children' on it. Our local Boots is tiny, so it must be stocked in most of them (don?t know what the difference is though)

Majormoo you mentioned you battled to get your DD to accept a bottle ? E is currently refusing one, having spent the last 6 weeks happily taking a bottle ? how did you win the battle in the end? DH is in charge of bottle feeds and it?s getting him down a bit and is taking it personally. And your poor little boy, I hope there?s no lasting damage to his nose. My DH works away during the week, but that will be no excuse if my DD ever bites anyone, its really nasty behaviour IMO (and if I try to use that as an excuse I hope you girls will quickly give me the kick up the arse that I deserve)

JJ sorry to read how down you were feeling on Sunday, I hope Monday went ok for you? On the expressing ? I get more the earlier in the day I do it, anything after lunchtime and I can only squeeze a drop out. My morning routine is now feed DD, feed me, express, shower and dress ? and this works quite well with DD as she?s normally at her best in the morning and is happy to lie on the floor while I express, and kick and coo and smile at me, whereas later in the day she needs more attention which I can't give while attached to a milking machine

Jolly how scary about the bump, I bet you watched it in slow motion. So glad to hear all is well with your DD

Hatty good to hear from you. BTW we?re having a York meet up next week (haven?t got your email address, maybe another Yorkshire lady has?) if you can join us

Kayz did you have fun in Whitby today? It?s been so lovely and sunny I bet Whitby was just gorgeous today

Veggie have you planted seeds or seedlings for your sprouts? If seedlings, do you have a greenhouse or similar for now ? DH doesn?t plant his out til May, cause it can be too cold before then (although if it?s seeds ignore me, cause it?s probably the perfect time). Which reminds me, only a month til another half a million sprout plants need planting ? argh. At least this year DD will need looking after so I have an excuse not to help, even being 6 weeks pregnant didn?t get me out of it last year!

Turnip interesting what you were saying about 5am, for the last few days I?ve been slacker about responding to DD?s cries at that time and found she settled herself without me ? wish I?d known earlier that was the right thing to do!

Trace what a down evening you?re having, I hope you?ve eaten some chocolate and are now getting some well deserved sleep

Verso yay that your DH and your Mum have sorted out 2 nights , deserved after their behaviour earlier in the week

Phew, all caught up now ? apologies if I?ve missed anyone out. It really is passed my bedtime now, so must go and get some sleep (I hope), night night

Hello girls

Bit tired as spent most of the day in Reading, seemingly. Met up with a friend who I have known since I was 14 - he has non-identical twin girls of 3 and a half, whom he brought with him today. He does a lot of the childcare. I don't see him often as his wife doesn't like me we both have busy lives. Anyway, it was really nice and I had DD in the wheels rather than in the sling, which was more conducive to shopping. Then DP came to collect me at 5 o'clock, which was kind of him, and we pottered round John Lewis and then went to a wine bar for a quick drink.

Three and a half is a tiring age, I will say that I won't say more as my friend revealed he is an occasional Mumsnetter, which surprised me.

Major, I am appalled that your wee baby was bitten How dreadful when other children misbehave badly and their parents don't tell them off sufficiently. I mean, actually hurting other kids is really naughty, I think.

Katie - Cotswold Wildlife Park and Warwick Castle are both nice, but I think the former on a sunny day like it was the other week when I went is really lovely. There is a petting zoo bit where you can stroke pigs and goats and things (should you so wish...I didn't).

Jealous of the cinema, WG and Turnip! I still haven't been with Arti and KMP, although I am off to London for the weekend (alone) and hope to see The Boat That Rocked.

Jump and Verso - baby giggles rock, I agree. DD hasn't been doing it for long. She only laughs at two things, so a job commissioning BBC comedy surely beckons*

I hope you feel better tomorrow, Trace. I cannot imagine how you have coped for the past 16 weeks, actually. Think you have done amazingly.

• If you are interested, a) is certain sort of pretend sneezes and b) the sound of a zip, but only sometimes.

lol @ sound of zip, LadyT. Bless!

Am amazed I can even crack a smile, let alone "lol", as it was another pants night chez nous. Sigh. At least I know I'm not alone - trace, effie. I don't like to let DD2 cry for long either because of DD1...

Looks like we're getting a serious dummy problem too, despite my best efforts. I only ever let her have it for comfort, not sleep, but both DH and the night nanny have used it at night times occasionally and so now she wants it every time she wakes... or spends her time nibbling the veeeeeery end of my nipple and stretching it out lonnnnnnnggggg and thiiiiiin, which is very sore . Oh, and then when I feel a let-down she CLAMPS down hard because she doesn't actually want any milk. Grrr.

At least I will get some sleep tonight - which is what has kept me going I think.

Oh and LadyT I believe you are responsible for a big hole in my bank account. Your comment about clothes being cheering resulted in a bit of an online spree . (I think this is also why I'm smiling as I have parcels to look forward to!)

Morning

3yo girls sound exhausting LadyT! It seems (from my non-extensive experience) that boys are trying at 2 and girls at 3...

Sunscreen: I try not to use sunscreen on babies and children unless the sun is really hot, this time of year I'd just shade them. I do think some sun is important tho, for vit D and all that. I have a feeling that sunscreen isn't recommended until 6 mo, though that could be the chemical kind rather than the barrier type (Green Baby sell a baby suncreen IIRC which has no nasties in it). Muslins are handy for impromptu sunshades.

Veggie: it's hard when they're upset by another child . Maybe a good time to start thinking about how he can deal with this type of argy-bargy (which sadly will prob be more common as he gets older). Do you want him to learn to ignore, or tell the other child not to hit him? Obv whacking the child back prob not the best approach (though tempting ) How does he feel when he's hit (also imp I think to let him know it's OK to be upset). DS1 has only occasionally been hit but he wails immediately, the other thing he hates is being shouted at by bossy girls.

I do worry cos I know having boys that they are likely to have to deal with physical violence at some point and I have NO idea what the best approach is. May leave that one to DH!

All went tits up last night.... remind me never to attempt this 'dream feed' shenanigans unless I can somehow incorporate a burp... I'm guessing that takes the 'dream' out of it though? Turnip how do you do it? I'll talk you through what I did.... After the explosive vomit / nappy disaster at 8pm ish, I swaddled and put him to bed - no issue's there.... At about 11pm he had not woken but I gave him a bottle and he took that but was obviously half asleep - eye's went from full open to half mast and a bit rolly at times. He managed to finish 5 oz however not as fast as usual. Still swaddled, I sat him upright in the cot as sometimes that is all it takes to get a burp - nothing - lay back down, sheep on, back to sleep in seconds....... only to be woken by crying at 0230! hasn't happened in weeks!! All I can put it down to is wind... Still no burp... few farts, but nothing would console him until I put him on the boob - 5 mins of that was ok then pushed off and wouldn't even feed!! changed nappy and back to sleep again, no burp but at least a couple of farts I thought may have fixed it - but awake again at 0530 - however this has been normal in the last few days and usually settles.... not this morning though..... inconsolable.... still no wind up after lots of trying.... massive full wet nappy - changed that fed again - still no burp but fell asleep now - he's absolutely shattered from his night! Talk to me Turnip, WG .... Should I do the same thing yet wake him to burp properly for that 10-1030 ish feed?

Lady yes we must do the cinema! Your Male friend Mumsnet's?

Verso great news on the 2 nights a week help.

Verso, yay on 2 nights off. Glad they've come to their senses finally!

Turnip, interesting what you were saying about the 5am waking. Ds2 always wakes at 5am & its hard to tell if its his sleep pattern or hunger! I'm trying not to feed him because at that time it messes up his daytime feeds but don't want him to go hungry!

Veggie, ikwym about hitting. Ds1 always cries if anyone does anything to him (he is a bit of a wuss I think!), I try to tell him to ignore it & then if they do it again, to go and play with something/someone else. I don't want to encourage the 'hit them back' as tempting as it is!

MM, that's terrible about the biting. I can't believe the mum didn't say anything!

MoM, it was me asking about the dummy. Think we will just have to go cold turkey on it

Daisy sounds like a lovely day at the zoo! Ds1 also liked the meerkats when we went!

Ladyt, lol @ dd liking a zip!

Morning,

I am bloody exhausted. Our heater broke a few weeks ago and they fitted the new one yesterday. You have to leave it on full power for 2 nights to get rid of the horrible smell. Well the bloody smoke alarms went off at 10 to 4!! So they obviously work on heat not just smoke. It was terrifying to hear them in the middle of the night. Luckily DH stopped me from dragging the DS1 out of bed as he was still asleep. Not quite sure how he manages to stay asleep through the smoke alarm. So the house stinks from the new heater and it says to keep children out of the room. Not sure how to do that when it looks like rain today.

Hope everyone is ok. I think I might go back to bed soon.

pmk - i don't dare do dream feeds - madam sleeps happily with only one feed in the middle of the night, so don't want to rock the boat. also, madam is better at the burping thing than it sounds like little pmk is - she voms so much that burping is almost an irrelevance. so sorry it was a tricky night for you.

I just have to defend DD2 who has been a joy and a delight at both two and three. No terrible twos for us . I think that she was making up for her first year or something! Anyway, she keeps me busy, but she's adorable (and will be FOUR in two weeks' time . Grown up!) so I disagree that three-year-olds are difficult.

DD1

Doh! lackofsleep