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May 2008 - gurgling, laughing and maybe even rolling!

725 replies

thefortbuilder · 04/08/2008 17:19

new thread everyone!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
pinacolada82 · 17/09/2008 21:03

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pinacolada82 · 17/09/2008 21:04

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magicfairy · 17/09/2008 21:25

hi, i dont want anyone to take this the wrong way but if your babies are crappy sleepers and you are not prepared to let them cry you are not alone!!
I'm not slating you lucky people whos babies do sleep through but i know how much support and comfort i got from when ds1 was a baby from other mums whos babies also slept crappily (if there is such a word!). It does seem that everyone i meet this time is sleeping through except me, i did actually meet someone on friday who is up every hour aswell. ds2 isnt that bad anymore but at least 3 times a night he wakes. He sleeps better than his brother did and i am pretty relaxed about it now as i know it works out in the end.
Anyway that kinda sounds like a rant but just thinking that some of you maybe struggling thinkng that you were the only one who had a rubbish sleeper of a baby, or maybe its just me! lol!

macaco · 18/09/2008 06:51

sorry to hear you're not sleeping Magicfairy. Have you read the book (healthy sleep habits happy child)? It's really helpful and really really doesn't have to involve any crying at all. I have found it a total and utter lifesaver.
´Not trying to second guess you or anything but it works for everyone FF or BF and it works FAST and it's not about listening to them scream for hours, just about rhythms of sleep and knowing when to put them down to sleep. All babies wake a couple of times a night, the trick is for them to be able to get back to sleep again themselves, which is what the book tells you how to acheive (easily).
Anyway enough of me doing Dr Weissbluth's publicity AGAIN!

Our routine goes like this;
6-7am wakes 210ml FF (can't do fl oz)
nap starts about 8 or 9am
naps 8 or 9 - 9.30-10.30
10 or 11am FF 210ml
nap starts about 1pm
nap 1pm ish-3pm ish
3pm FF 210ml
4pm ish another nap
4-5 ish nap
6ish bath
6.30 FF 210ml
7pm at the latest in bed.
Although recently he hasn't been taking as much Formula as that..think the tooth is bothering him.
aaaargh. tired this morning. Friends arrived to stay last night and sat up talking.

Mitchell81 · 18/09/2008 07:30

Magicfairy: Don't feel alone, I also have a baby who doesn't sleep through so you are not alone. If you are happy then don't worry about what other peoples babies do. It isn't a competition, please no one take offence, not mean't to be.

magicfairy · 18/09/2008 09:38

thanks macaco and mitchell. As i said i am not bothered this time around that ds2 isnt a good sleeper just thought i would let others know that not all of us are blessed. thanks for the recommendation of the book macao but im not into parenting books, even if they can give me a better nights sleep, i prefer to follow my instinct and i also dont have the time to read them, i would rather spend my free time doing stuff that doesnt involve babies!

Anyway on a positive note things are going really well here, ds1 is offically in nursery for 1 morning a week and is slowly getting used to it. He seems so much more grown up since turning 2 last week! He is being really cute and lovely at the mo and giving mummy, daddy and bubby lots of kisses and cuddles, unfortunatley i think that is how we have all ended up with tonsillitis!
Ds2 is doind great, he is 4 months now and 17lb and generally very happy and socliable. Im not sure about him teething anymore as he seems a bit more settled now his cold or whatever it was has chilled out and he is just left with snotty nose. Shockingly of all though he is crawling and rolling across the room! I think its survival tactics, getting out the way of his brother!!
Anyway off to asdas mother and toddler soft play session now, enjoy the sunshine!!

luckymummy74 · 18/09/2008 11:49

Sorry magicfairy for talking about sleeping babies. I'm sure you'll understand, that when it does happen, unfortunately you do just wanna shout it from the roof tops .

DD2 is full of catarrh. Not snotty as such but really bunged up in her sinuses and has a chesty cough .I can just hear it all rattling around her sinuses. I've tried giving her calpol but she just spits it all out .

luckymummy74 · 18/09/2008 11:55

I JUST COPIED AND PASTED THIS THAT SOMEONE ON THE APRIL THREAD HAD TAKEN A LONG TIME TO DO. IT'S THE BOOK IN SUMMARY!!! IT'S RATHER LONG BUT MIGHT HELP SOME OF YOU WHO DON'T HAVE THE BOOK OR DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ THE WHOLE BOOK.

NOTES AND QUOTES FROM...

Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, by Dr Marc Weissbluth
(Vermillion, London: 2005)

Age 5-12 Months

Increased sociability, infants enjoy their parents company. The more you amuse your baby, the more s/he expects this to be the natural way of things, so when you dress baby or leave him/her alone to get dressed yourself, you can expect her to protest at the fun stopping.
Cue ? more crying when it?s time to sleep. This is normal, but difficult for parents to deal with. Several options from Extinguishing to Gradual Withdrawal

After 4 months, infant sleep becomes more adult-like, the sleep cycles from deep to light non-REM sleep with interruptions of REM sleep.

There should be brief periods of wakefulness during the day, to avoid an overtired state

This is an outline of a reasonable, healthy sleep pattern. Not a set of rigid rules. Times are described by clock time but best to watch your baby than to watch the clock.

Cycle is:

Start the day: around 7am
1st nap: 9am
2nd nap: 1pm
3rd nap: varies
Bedtime: 6-8pm
1st awakening:
2nd awakening:

Wake-up time:
Some babies wake up early, 5 or 6 am, and return to sleep after feeding or nappy change. This is continuation of night sleep and not a nap.

It is not a good idea to go to your child before 6, because he will start to force himself awake earlier and earlier to enjoy your company.
You can?t change the wake-up time by keeping baby up later, feeding solids before bedtime or awakening baby for a feeding before you go to sleep. It?s an independent neurological alarm clock that appears to be independent of the part of the brain that keeps infants asleep.

Morning wakefulness:

Lasts about 2 hours for 4-5 month-old babies or about 3 hours for 8 months. Some babies may only be able to stay up for 1 hour.
Plan a wind-down or nap time ritual of up to 30 minutes ? you decide what it is, but limit it because hours of holding your baby produces only a light sleep state, which is poor quality sleep. Begin the wind-down ritual about 30 mins before the end of your baby?s wakeful period. At the end of the wind-down ritual, whether your baby is asleep or awake lie down with her on the bed or put her in the cot. She may now cry a little, a lot, or not at all.

Nap 1: Midmorning, around 9am, for about an hour or two.

This nap develops first, usually established at about 12-16 weeks. A sleep period is considered ?restorative sleep? if it is about an hour or longer. Forty to forty-five minutes is sometimes enough. Naps of less than 30 mins should not count as naps.

  • try starting the morning nap earlier ? after just one hour of wakefulness ? if difficulty establishing it.
  • try brief but intense stimulation outdoors during wakefulness periods, especially exposing the baby to outdoor light in the morning or make the room as bright as possible when he wakes. Darken when it?s time for soothing.
  • try a longer soothing to sleep routine

Midday Wakeful Time

Expect your baby to be ready for another nap after 2-3 hours of wakefulness.
If your child did not take a morning nap, don?t allow him to snooze in the car or pushchair at a time when he should be awake, it throws the remaining sleep/wake pattern off kilter.

  • During a wakeful period, it is difficult to fall asleep or stay asleep and if you do fall asleep it?s less restful during this time.

Usually if a nap doesn?t occur, let baby stay awake and go on to the next sleep period. Probably it will take place a little earlier.

Nap 2: Early Afternoon

Usually occurs between noon and 2pm, most commonly around 1pm, try to make sure it starts before 3pm. The nap should last about an hour or two.
Most common problem is that the Midday wakeful time goes on too long which causes your baby to be overtired and makes going to sleep falling or staying asleep difficult.

Nap 3: Late Afternoon: 16% of babies have 3 naps

If this nap occurs, the time it starts may vary between 3pm and 5pm. Duration also varies but it is usually quite brief, around 30-45 mins.
This nap usually disappears by 9 months.
Persisting with this nap when it isn?t needed can make the bedtime difficult, cutting it out usually then requires an earlier bedtime.

Bedtime:

Establish a regular bedtime routine in terms of WHAT you do: bathing, massage, story, lullaby, rocking or other soothing efforts. Approximately the same sequence each night helps signal to the child that it is the time for night-sleep at approximately the same time. But don?t be rigidly regular in terms of WHEN you do it: there is enough normal irregularity in napping to produce variability in bedtime.

Different parts of the brain are responsible for day and night sleep, so you don?t need to do the same soothing for day sleep as for night ? just be consistent in whatever you do for nightsleep, and how you soothe for day time naps, even if the two routines are different.

Night wakings for feeding:

Your baby may wake to be fed 4-6 hours after his last feeding. Some babies don?t, others are actually hungry at this time and you should respond to them promptly.
In a child under 4 months, the bedtime may have been later and the last feeding at night later. Now your baby is going to sleep earlier, is fed earlier in the evening and may need a night feeding; this is normal.
This night feeding, and a second night feeding, may be needed until your baby is about 9 months of age.

Partial awakenings, or light sleep stages (?arousals?) occur every one or two hours when your child is asleep. Sometimes your child will call out or cry during these arousals. If your child is not in your bed, going in to him at the time of these partial awakenings will eventually lead to a night-waking or night-feeding habit. This is because picking up, holding and feeding your baby will eventually cause him to force himself to a more alert state during these arousals for the pleasure of your company. He will learn to expect to be fed or played with at every arousal.

If your baby wakes at night and appears hungry, feed her. If your baby appears to want to play at night, stop going to her. At night, the question is ?Does my baby need me or want me?.

A second waking for feeding may occur around 4-5 am. Some children don?t wake at this time, but those who do are usually wet, soiled or hungry and a prompt response is appropriate. While you attend to his needs, maintain silence and darkness so your child will return to sleep, and hopefully wake up around 7.
Many children don?t need to be fed twice at night, but some get up at 2 or 3 am and then not again. A common mistake is to feed at midnight, 2am and again around 4 or 5 am. If you?ve fed 4-6hrs after the last feed, try not to feed again until another 4 hrs have passed.

Drowsy signs:

As your baby shows signs of becoming drowsy you should begin a soothing to sleep routine.

Drowsy signs, sleepy cues, sleep signals:

  • moving into the sleep zone
Decreased activity Slower motions Less vocal Sucking is weaker or slower Quieter Calmer Appears disinterested in surroundings Eyes are less focussed Eyelids drooping Yawning

Fatigue signs:

  • Entering overtired zone
Fussing Rubbing eyes Irritable Grumpy

Food and sleep:
The brain controls the sleep/wake pattern, not the stomach ? we know this because infants who are continuously fed through gastric tubes develop similar sleep/wake patterns to other infants. That said, it?s unlikely that your baby will relax and feel sleepy if they?re hungry. Also, sucking is soothing to a baby so if you suspect your baby is hungry, feed her, if you?re not sure, try offering the breast and you may soothe your baby to sleep through sucking.

Nap Deprivation:

The fatigue from nap deprivation leads to increased levels of arousal and alertness, and this causes difficulties in falling asleep, staying asleep or both.

  • Shorten the interval of wakefulness before the first nap & re-establish the early afternoon nap by focussing on the midday interval.
  • Make sure the afternoon nap doesn?t start too late, protect a reasonable evening bedtime
  • Consistency in the nap time ritual

If the afternoon nap is needed but the child fights sleep the most then, try shortening the midday period of wakefulness. Start the afternoon nap earlier.

Brief Sleep Durations

If the normal bedtime was around 8/9pm before the onset of nightwaking, try moving the bedtime to an earlier time.
Gradually shift it forward in 20 minute increments until the night wakings stop. (sounds simple?)

Early Awakenings

Most children should go to bed between 6-8pm, and wake between 6-7am. 6AM is a normal wake-up time and shouldn?t be ignored, even if it feels early to the parent.

If going in BEFORE 6am seems to be stimulating the child more than soothing him/her, try waiting until 6. The reason is that children can start to fight sleep and get up earlier and earlier to enjoy their parent?s company, which then has the effect of throwing the entire day?s sleep patterns off.
If this pattern is already established and the baby is waking at 4 and ready to play, try putting the child to bed earlier ? if they get more sleep at the front end of they are better rested and are thus able to sleep better (sleep begets sleep), and a more likely to sleep later in the morning.

Night wakings:

Approx 20% of infants between 4 and 8 months of age who seem especially prone to waking at night had colic when they were younger. Parents of these children found that not much they did helped with the colic, so pretty much gave up regular routine. However after four months of age, regular and consistent attention to bedtimes and nap times really does help the older infant sleep better.

About 10% of infants snore or breathe through their mouths during sleep, possibly due to allergies. These infants awaken as frequently as those who had colic but for some reason parents don?t tend to think of it as a problem.

A 3rd frequent cause of night waking is associated with abnormal sleep schedules.

Other things that cause night waking:

  • Fever
  • Painful ear infections
  • Atopic dermatitis, eczema

Solutions to Help Your Child Sleep Better:

Choose the solution (there are many) that works best for you and your child. For the 20% of babies that suffered from colic in the early months and who persist at the age of 4 months+ in having severe sleep problems, extinction or ignoring all crying, works best. But is also the hardest sleep solution for parents and you should always consider trying other solutions that involve less crying, especially if you child does not/did not have colic.

?No Cry? sleep solutions

  • Start early to avoid the overtired state by trying to soothe your baby to sleep within 1 to 2 hours of wakefulness.
  • Always hold your baby, always respond and soothe you baby as long as s/he needs to induce sleep; sleep with your baby
  • Always respect ?drowsy signs? so your baby never becomes overtired
  • Always try to put your child to sleep drowsy but awake
  • Motionless sleep (i.e. not in buggy or car)
  • Establish and consistently practice bedtime routines
  • Practice scheduled awakening
  • Get fresh air between naps, go for a walk
  • Control the wake-up time
  • Slowly and gradually give your child less attention around falling asleep or during the night
  • White noise
  • Room-darkening window shades
  • Relaxation
  • Stimulus control

?Maybe Cry? Sleep Solutions

  • Father puts baby to sleep
  • Make bedtime earlier
  • Focus on the morning nap
  • Sleep rules
  • Silent return to sleep
  • Day correction of bedtime problems

?Let Cry? Sleep Solutions

  • Ignoring all crying, or extinction
  • Ignoring some crying
  • Check and console
  • Cot tent

Fading = gradual withdrawal

Over a period of time, you gradually reduce your efforts at night, so that your child takes over for himself and falls asleep or returns to sleep by himself.
Here is an example of a fade sequence to eliminate night wakings:

  1. Respond promptly, spend as much time as needed.
  2. Respond promptly, father gives bottle or mother doesn?t nurse
  3. Change from milk to water
  4. No bottle
  5. No picking up
  6. No verbal communication
  7. Minimal contact, patting or hand-holding
  8. No eye contact; sober, unresponsive face
  9. No physical contact; sit next to child
10. Move chair away from cot towards door, slowly over several days 11. Reduce time with child 12. Delay response.
macaco · 18/09/2008 12:20

Also, you will notice that it's 5 to 12 months. Your LO is only 4 months, right? Well, the book explains that the brain changes at 6 weeks, and again at 4 months so it would only be from about now that a lot of the stuff we're talking about would start to happen. My DS is now 6 months and at 4 months started doing 10pm to 6am with some night wakings. The 7pm to 7am thing is really quite recent. That's what I like about Weissbluth, he's not saying "Do this and from day 1 your child will be perfect" but that they change and if you watch for the signs you can help them develop good habits.
I totally know what you mean about doing non baby things while they're asleep..I just really like all those parenting books. He'll work out the sleeping thru thing soon enough. Hope you're not too knackered in the meantime.
DS clearly on nap strike today....I'm knackered.

thefortbuilder · 18/09/2008 13:37

could we maybe agree as well that some babies do just wake in the night and do not settle themselves well at all?

ds1 was dreadful and would not settle himself yet ds2 is much better and will, so some sleep books do not work for everyone. having driven myself to distraction and PND with ds1 desperately trying pretty much everything over a long period of time for him to self soothe I could only really cope when i realised that maybe he was just a crappy sleeper and eventually at his own pace he would work it out.

sorry i know it sounds like a rant, but sometimes the books just don't work.

OP posts:
macaco · 18/09/2008 14:39

absolutely flick, they're all different. When I said it works for everyone I meant it works whether BF or FF, that it's not dependant on how you feed them. i Didn't mean it works for every single baby, it depends on so many things. For instance my mum says I NEVER napped during the day. EVER. But I slept all night. There's nothing in the sleep book about that! I was obviously just a freak!

asicsgirl · 18/09/2008 19:41

i admire your attitude magicfairy, i wish i#d been able to follow my instncts with ds1. i spent a huge amounnt of time worrying myself silly about what he should be doing, but after a while dp and i noticed that just as we were getting really stressed about something (sleeping through, napping in his cot, giving up bf, going to sleep on his own, you name it) ds1 would quietly sort himself out. it's almost like he knew his own schedule of development and was just ignoring our attempts to influence it! so while some of ds2's habits are a bit inconvenient i feel a lot more confident that they will all sort themselves out in time.

fwiw ds2 is sleeping through most nights but just for comparison here is our 'routine':

  • sometime between 5 and 7 am, usually around 6:30 - wake up, bf, giggle, play
  • an hour later - bf to sleep for anythign from half an hour to 2.5 hours
  • wake up, bf if it's been a while since the last one, not if it hasn't
  • play etc for an hour or maybe two, bit of bf here and there
  • 11-12noon ish: bf again to sleep. will sleep for 15 mins on my lap; best bet is bung him in the sling where he will sleep for anything from half hour to 2.5 hours
  • wake up, bf again, play etc
  • may have another short nap in sling depending on how much sleep had earlier
  • more bf, playing etc
  • 5pm ish: another nap in sling
  • bf, play, doze, bf etc
  • 8pm into pajamas and sleeping bag
  • bf, play, doze, bf etc
  • between 9:15 and 10:30 pm - bf to sleep HURRAH

just in case any of the rest of you are thinking 'help! all these perfect routines!' no offence to the perfect routine-ers of course

and in fact this 'routine' is fine... i don't mind it all being a bit unpredictable - it means it's easier to be flexible and do things at different times on different days. e.g. some mornings we can sleep in while dp does the nursery run, other days we need to be up and at 'em but i know ds2 will catch up on food/ sleep later.

of course how ds1 fits into all this is another matter entirely but i'm lucky as i only have 2 days when i have to deal with both of them on my own...

luckymummy74 · 18/09/2008 20:26

our 'routine' is Veeeerrrry flexible!!!

Mitchell81 · 19/09/2008 09:09

We don't have a routine as such, wakes, eats, plays, sleeps in no particular order. Can't have a routine as we need to be flexible in between music groups, creche for both boys, DD going and coming home from school, mothers and toddler groups, etc. DS2 has to fit in with our routine( not that we have a strict routine either). It works for us. I am lucky that being a SAHM means no deadline looming in going back to work.

Beautiful day today in Scotland will need to get into the garden and spend some time outside.

Flick: I agree babies are different. And some don't fall asleep easily.

Macaco and LM Does the book actually tell you good ways to get baby to fall asleep on their own, ie the different techniques to try. Luckymummy thanks for putting the summary, still need to carry on reading the book. My DS2 just gets so hysterical if I ever have to leave him to cry if I am doing other things etc. So the crying method will definetley not be one that I will be trying.

macaco · 19/09/2008 11:44

Mitchell I'm not an expert but I think the idea is if you get their window of sleep time right they go down quite easily.The way you soothe them to sleep isn't important, it's when you do it.
I know if I leave it too long with DS he gets really silly and really can't get himself to sleep so we have to leave it and try again later.
I really hope nobody is taking this talk of routines the wrong way. I love the sleep book I find it fascinating on many levels and the ideas in it have really helped me but I totally understand that everyone is different. When I talk about routines I mean it in a loose sense of the word. What I take from the book and has helped me enormously as a clueless first timer is the idea that after 2 hours awake he'll probably be getting over tired and I should try and wind down to a sleepy state and put him to bed. And also after 4 months of age for me to roughly try to help`him to nap at about 9ish, 1ish and maybe 4 ish and bed by 7ish. That doesn't mean he always does that but it helps me work out that he's probably crying because he's tired.
I think the vast majority of DS' crying is tiredness actually. the solution to that is to put him down for a nap before the crying gets going. It's intersting that your routine Mitchell, although different and BFing not FFing, actually fits largely into that pattern.
The book has helped me to have an idea what to expect might happen and when. For me, personally, it works. If i had another baby, maybe it wouldn't work with them. But 2 or 3 naps plus early bedtime works really well for DS. And that's the main idea of the book, naps plus early to bed. Also, my situation is different as I've only got one child to look after, not trying to look after an older sibling too.
and anyway, what's it matter if your child is healthy and sleeping well, what you do?
Well, enough about sleep. DS isn't napping well at all as his teeth (yes Teeth! two together!) are bothering him a bit. He still sleeps thru thankfully but is a bit miserable druing the day. He's coping very well though.
I'm knackered, got friends visiting and they've gone off for the day so I'm going to see if I can nap when DS does today to recharge batteries a bit!

macaco · 19/09/2008 11:45

oooh LM, the squash recipe sounds fabulous, going to try to do it this weekend. Are you vegetarian?

luckymummy74 · 19/09/2008 22:27

Nope, not a veggie, but I eat a lot of veggie food as I love it.

I agree with you on all you said about the book (the bloody book!!!) It really works for us, 2-3 naps and early to bed.

Been circuit training tonight. I think I sweated enough to earn the box of maltesers I devoured when I got home!!!

happycamper10180 · 20/09/2008 11:55

lm I'm loving the butternut squash recipe - I always roast it (with red onion and rosemary), delicious but starting to get a bit samey.

I've decided to give up worrying about sleep. DS does sleep well at night and although he wakes up to feed goes back down easily. In the daytime the only place he will have a proper nap is in the sling, anywhere else after 30 mins he's awake, won't go back to sleep and is nowhere near refreshed. He used to sleep well anywhere so I'm hoping this is just a phase and the extra cuddle time just about makes up for the backache...

He's not even 4 months yet so I expect he'll sort himself out eventually [hopeful face].

macaco · 20/09/2008 14:51

happycamper sounds like my DS at 4 months and he's a great little sleeper now! 4 months is only little, isn't it? Sounds like he's already quite good.

luckymummy74 · 20/09/2008 19:41

I've had such a lovely day. Took the girls to church this morning (DH on long day shift, saturday mass only 25 mins so easier to manage 2 little ones!). Then we played in the garden, me and DD1 had lunch in the garden while DD2 napped, then they both napped for about 2 hrs so I read my book in the garden (housework up to date for a change!) and they were both just really good girls all day. Bathed them both and put them to bed, I have just cracked open a bottle of red and waiting for DH to come home so that we can eat the homemade pizza I have made!!!

Hope you've all enjoyed the sunshine too.

Mocat · 22/09/2008 16:01

First tooth has appeared! Ds came down with a cold on Thurs evening and by Sun morn the cold had eased and the tip of a tooth had appeared! He had been feeding ferociously last week and I was all ready to start him on spoon feeds but it was the tooth bothering him. So, still no spoon feeds but loads of silent disapproval from selected friends and relatives. 5 months old today.

lm74 Ds has had to be taken out of church for the last two Sundays. He previously slept through mass but has taken a liking to shouting and crying. We have a cryting chapel but I don't like them so it's been feeds in the car or dad walking him round the carpark .

Notsoseriousanymore · 22/09/2008 16:03

Hello!

Remember me?

Would it be OK if I rejoin?

Mitchell81 · 22/09/2008 16:07

We also have our first tooth through, been chewing on everything for days and now can feel and see it. So first tooth at 19 weeks. Rolling from front to back, but not back to front yet. He is a very happy little boy, except when I need to do something he then wants to be held constantly.

Mitchell81 · 22/09/2008 16:08

Oh cross posted, welcome back.

Notsoseriousanymore · 22/09/2008 16:20

Hi Mitchell!

DS is the same - can roll front to back but not the other way round, and also likes to be held constantly!!!

No teeth here though!!

Hello to everyone else!

NSSA x