TTC First Baby Catch-up With Our Babies Continued!!

[ELW85]

Hi all

As I’m rubbish and keep double posting I thought I’d start a new thread as we’re nearly at 1k.
I don’t have all of the OG’s so apologies for anyone I miss or anyone I miss in general (blaming lack of coffee this morning!!)

@Delilah7 @RanchoRelaxo @MrsR16 @thumper59 @trashkitten10 @Bostonfern @crossfitgirl @Fivebyfive2 @MrsEG @purplefig @LarryDavid @Lemonysherbet @Stormtrooperjulian @MrsH497 @LokiCat @Cupcakesandglitter

@ELW85, he had 45 mins and was up and down for a while... I took him out in the buggy for a short early evening stroll/nap to keep him going until bed. He's just had his tea and hopefully he'll be down around 8pm now. It's just so disheartening when I finally get a day where I feel I've done everything 'right' like wake windows, self settling etc we have the worst night we've had for over a week.... It's like, what's the point?! 🤷‍♀️ Hopefully tonight goes a bit better! Xx

@Fivebyfive2 - I totally hear you! How was last night?
I’d take comfort in that he’s nearly crawling so you’re still doing everything right, it just happens to coincide with a major learning curve! Do you follow leaps?
You’re doing an amazing job, don’t you think otherwise!! Xx

I thought I’d been nailing wake windows; Finn going down within seconds etc and then I read a post about babies crying in their sleep or waking up crying and apparently it’s chronic over tiredness. So it looks like I’ve been keeping him awake too long and now I need to spend a few days of him sleeping as much as possible?!
I’m not sure though as for example, if he was essentially sleep deprived, last night when he woke for his feed he would have fallen asleep on the bottle, reverting to that as a crutch as he just couldn’t settle. He drained the bottle (6oz) and put himself back to sleep within 45 mins?!
He is sleeping way too much in the day though so today I’m attempting crib naps and hopefully get his day sleep to around 4/5 hours instead of nearly 6!

Morning all!

Esme is 4 months old tomorrow, how?!?

I hope I'm not speaking too soon but I think we might be through other side of 4 month regression! Last 4 nights she's only woken once or twice between 7:30 ish and 6:30 ish. Long may it continue! She even self settled the other night when she woke as I put her in her crib asleep.

Had a bit of drama on Monday, Esme rolled off our bed onto the floor. Luckily she was ok but I've been feeling so awful about it ever since. So angry with myself! She'd never rolled before! We just had a very cuddly day and the in the evening before bed we were checking her over again for any bruises and she rolled from front to back!! Very proud of her.

I've been getting out and about a bit more, the anxiety is definitely getting better with each trip out. Just so desperate for everything to go back to normal!

@purplefig It is so so lovely to see you back! I don't think you were precious at all and sounds like M is doing brilliantly. I'm not sure we'll manage another 2 months on just breast milk, she eyes up everything I'm putting in my mouth 😂😂

@Fivebyfive2 How are you getting on with DH being back at work? Fab news on the crawl, probably thinking about or dreaming about it kept his wee brain ticking all night and disturbing his sleep.

@MrsEG Really hope you get everything sorted with your work. At least December is far enough away to discuss it all.

@ELW85 Sorry you're still finding Finn's sleep/naps stressful. I was like that about 6 weeks ago and it was stopping my enjoyment on being a mum. I decided to not read anything about sleep and just follow my instincts and Esme's cues and life has been so much more enjoyable. I think me being more relaxed has chilled her out too. Don't be hard on yourself, it just shows how much you care.

First pic of her smiling in the car seat!! We've got a very long drive next weekend so fingers crossed!

@LikeTheFruit - what an absolutely stunning little girl Esme is!
I’m so pleased you’re relaxing into things and I think I need to take a leaf out of your book. I think I am getting there slowly but surely!
I know you’ll feel awful but honestly it’s just one of those things. I woke up this morning and Finn had done a 180 in his Snuzpod. No idea how and I dread to think.
He was also fast asleep though so I’m thinking he just loves a nocturnal wriggle! I really do need to limit his day sleep though...I think it might prevent stuff like that!
Where are you off to on your trip?
We’re going up near Loch Lomond to a lodge at the end of next month. Partly excited, partly terrified!

@Fivebyfive2 a tiny crawl!! Ahh amazing!! Go on Joe! There’ll be no stopping him soon!

@ELW85 I honestly wouldn’t read too much into things online at all, the boys wake crying but sometimes it’s because they’ve rolled over in their cot, or they’re hungry, etc etc - could be zillions of reasons! Google is a mums best friend and worst nightmare. Like you’re saying I just focus on wake windows with the boys and try and clock their tired cues and go off that!

@LikeTheFruit she is so gorgeous, look at that smile!! Ahh, bless her. Ruairí rolled out of his swing once, I was so angry (why didn’t I strap him in properly!) but I’m sure it’ll be the first of a million mishaps!! Rolling though - well done Esme! She’s coming along leaps and bounds! I really need to take a leaf out of your book and get out more. I’m getting cabin fever! I’ll be much happier when everyone is wearing masks I think. Especially at Tesco’s - it’s a bloody free for all in there near me!

I’m so shattered this week, the last two nights I’ve gone to bed at 9 to try and catch up! Ruairí had me up between 1-2 last night rolling on to his belly, he’s a bloody nightmare - he wants to be there but screams when he first rolls over!! I battled with him for an hour only for him to eventually pass out on his tummy 🙈 I try to remind myself just how exhausting it must be for them learning these new skills!!
We’re getting the high chairs set up this week too to road test the boys haha, I have a feeling they’ll still pitch forwards in them as they do in the walker but hoping practice will get them better at it as were 3 weeks away from weaning now!!

Also - forgot to add, did any other babies sort of go off their milk a bit at 5-ish months? Conor currently won’t finish his bottle at a feed like he used to and just kinda keeps ‘snacking’ at it, will go back to it again every sort of 20-30 mins?

@MrsEG - I’m just so confused! When he naps on me, he could nap for hours so I presume he’s lying awake at night.
I’ve tried to limit his day sleep to less than 5 hours today to see if it helps. When I tried to get him to sleep earlier yesterday he went off with no crying so now I’m panicking that when he naps and has a whinge before hand it’s because he’s hugely over tired? But I can’t let him sleep all day.
Head...brick wall!!

Thinking about them learning new skills is a great way to look at it 😊
I hope you managed to get a bit of rest today?

@ELW85 oh you're so right, you just have to listen to your gut I think. The food prep machine sounds fab! I'm winging it atm with a stick blender. I haven't done any batch cooking as not sure what she'd eat. But so far it's been everything 😂

@Fivebyfive2 so glad to hear you're getting some longer stretches of sleep. They're blissful aren't they?! Still a rarity here! Like you I've been feeding to sleep at night, for the sake of sleep. We have worked on reducing that this week though and she'll now be cuddled back to sleep. Shame she wakes up the minute she's put back in her cot 😂. So amazing he's started crawling!!

@MrsEG yes we're all sort of living in a weird warped normal with hazy rules. Bizarre. Must try and get out more, but it's difficult to avoid the summer crowds here. How did fudge making go? Have to say I'm impressed you've started a baking side hustle!! I can barely cook our dinner most days 😂

@MrsR16 so glad you had a good break! I've heard good things about the portable blackout blinds. 5am isn't too atrocious! (Or maybe my standards are just incredibly low 😳). We started M on puréed veg around the same time you started Ethan, the baby bird face is so funny isn't it?!

@LikeTheFruit aww look at Esme 😍 such a cutie! Yeah I think you'll probably get a feel for when she's ready for more...interestingly speaking with friends and the NCT girls, pretty much everyone started before 6 months. How is she in the car? How longs the journey? We're doing 4 hrs in a few weeks. Hoping to do overnight so she sleeps.

@ELW85 I do limit the boys day sleep, we’re in a pretty good routine at the moment (but speak to any twin mum, we’re all the same! Zero winging it with two!) So as they’re 5 months I don’t let them have more than 4 hours a day, I try for 3.5 really. I wake them from naps if I need to. And then they have a decent sleep at night. I’ve still got Ruairí waking like friggin clockwork with his rolling in his cot every night!! But last night I was able to settle him much quicker.
If it’s really troubling you could you speak to a sleep consultant? This is what I did (and still do!) and I found it so so helpful. Helped me stay far far away from google!!
I managed a small nap yesterday afternoon. I do wish I could have some more help from parents but my sister has been struck by hyperemesis again so they are with her a lot to look after her toddler as she’s basically bed bound. So I’m very much going it alone; I did all but one feed myself yesterday. Which I know sounds like nothing but I’m still yet to master the tandem feed solo!

@purplefig I know, I was testing the water this week with my first actual orders - it wasn’t too bad as I just did fudge and rocky road which is so so fast to make but the chilling slowed me down - I need bigger trays! I’ve been scoffing this all week though - snap attached!
So good to hear M has such a good appetite. Conor sat up on the playmat yesterday (!!) so I think he’s much closer to being ready now. Ruairí still headbuts the floor when we try him 🙈 but then he’s so so strong with his neck in other ways (will add a pic) so who knows?!

Urghh just typed a reply and lost it. Sleeeeeep!!! After another bad night I'm firmly back in the "sort it out now" camp, having spent some time at 3am on the sleep board and reading stories of 18 month olds who are still waking for feeds / settling. I just so do not want that. Already shattered after five months of crap sleep.

I don't know what to do though. M can sometimes self settle in the day, but obviously not consistently as since the regression, bar two nights, she has woken at least every 2 hours at night (which reading around seems like the end of sleep cycle).

This week I've managed to stop cosleeping and feeding to sleep, but she still needs picking up and soothing back to sleep. We left her at 3am to see if she'd get back on her own, but it just escalated and ended up taking an hour to get her back. I've been up since. 😴😴😴

Any advice?!?? Do I start with day naps and getting her to go to sleep on her own? The really infuriating thing is, we've been through all of this before - she was so soooo good at putting herself to sleep / self soothing and then the regression hit and it's been awful sleep ever since. I feel like it was all for nothing.

@MrsEG did you use a sleep consultant? How was it for you? Ahhh the boys sound like they're coming along fab with their strength. Are you going to do traditional or BLW? omg your sweet treats look so good 🤤- send some here please, I need all the sugar and caffeine today 🥴

Urghh just typed a reply and lost it. Sleeeeeep!!! After another bad night I'm firmly back in the "sort it out now" camp, having spent some time at 3am on the sleep board and reading stories of 18 month olds who are still waking for feeds / settling. I just so do not want that. Already shattered after five months of crap sleep.

I don't know what to do though. M can sometimes self settle in the day, but obviously not consistently as since the regression, bar two nights, she has woken at least every 2 hours at night (which reading around seems like the end of sleep cycle).

This week I've managed to stop cosleeping and feeding to sleep, but she still needs picking up and soothing back to sleep. We left her at 3am to see if she'd get back on her own, but it just escalated and ended up taking an hour to get her back. I've been up since. 😴😴😴

Any advice?!?? Do I start with day naps and getting her to go to sleep on her own? The really infuriating thing is, we've been through all of this before - she was so soooo good at putting herself to sleep / self soothing and then the regression hit and it's been awful sleep ever since. I feel like it was all for nothing.

@MrsEG did you use a sleep consultant? How was it for you? Ahhh the boys sound like they're coming along fab with their strength. Are you going to do traditional or BLW? omg your sweet treats look so good 🤤- send some here please, I need all the sugar and caffeine today 🥴

Sorry for the double post, it said it hadn't sent 🙄

Morning

@MrsEG - I have thought about a sleep consultant but to be honest DH wouldn’t go for it.
If it escalated or I couldn’t cope I think he would. Fingers crossed I can figure it out on my own. There’s also an awesome lady on the sleep threads with advice who is starting out as a sleep consultant so I bounce stuff off her. She’s lovely.
Those look amazing!! Are you going to deliver to Newcastle? 😂

@purplefig - ah mate it’s TOUGH and as sleep affects everyone I’m not surprised it’s the biggest topic for parents.
You’ll have seen me on the sleep boards, and I also get traumatised at the thought of a 2 year old screaming the house down because I won’t settle him for the 8th time.
A lady in my new antenatal WhatsApp is going through hell with her nearly 1 year old so I’m with you on doing anything to avoid that.
So, bear with me but here’s what I’ve concluded after hours of reading and cold hard experience with Finn, and canvassing every parent I know...

• if you sleep train, it is likely you’ll have to do it again repeatedly. My mate fed to sleep til 12 months, trained for a week, nailed it, they went on holiday for a few days, and now they’re back to square one.

Basically anything can derail it if they feel anxious to be close to you (illness or a myriad of reasons) so don’t feel bad that the regression knocked your work out. Also bear this in mind if you go down the training route. It depends on what we mean by sleep training you see.

• sleep is really developmental. Took me ages to come to terms with that. So, M might be able to self settle but it might only be a proportion of the time right now. They don’t link day sleep cycles fully until between 5-7 months. Obviously they can sleep for longer during the day, but it depends on environment, depth of sleep they get to etc. If they’re over tired they just won’t self settle. It’s like asking you to fall asleep when you’re sleep deprived; you’re too wired to do it.

So Finn, I have watched self settle day and night and sometimes, he just refuses to do it!! I’ve by no means cracked sleep with him by the way, but I’ve spent a LOT of time trying different things.

• don’t start with day time. Nail night time first and then do day. As @Fivebyfive2 mentioned, they’re controlled by different parts of the brain, so learned at different times hence the not linking nap cycles solidly until between 5-7 months. Some not til 9 months after the 8 month regression. So do nights, higher sleep pressure and let’s face it, you want them to self settle at night!
• what’s your routine like? Is there room for introducing new associations into the routine? Are you open to trying things like dummies if you don’t already?
• how quickly do you want to stop the feeding to sleep? Obviously the quicker you go, the more tears there will be.

I know it feels awful but it really won’t be forever, and there are hundreds of solutions.
PM me if you want to chat about what I’ve done etc. I’m not saying I have answers but happy to share to see if it helps.

@purplefig I did use a consultant and she was worth her bloody weight in gold, she still lets me text her with any niggles. It was very personalised to twins as well (eg what do I do if they both need settling and I’m alone?!) We’ve struggled a bit with settling for naps since the 4 month regression which I’m still working on but their night time sleep, through some miracle, went back to normal. They only wake in the night now if they’ve rolled over/bumped the cot etc.
With twins I was keen for routine anyway but my niece didn’t sleep through until she was 17 months old, always needing the boob for a dummy, and my sister was just like DONT END UP LIKE ME haha.
It’s so so tough and the sleep deprivation makes it even harder. I just asked around locally/other friends with kids for recommendations. I ended up actually having two consults - one with Charmian Mead and then one with a more local consultant called the Cheshire Baby Whisperer (she’s the lovely lady who lets me text her!!) and I implemented bits from both - reassuringly they both had very similar ideas!
Get plenty of sugar, carbs, coffee down you today - some days are just all about survival!!

@MrsEG - I had a free call with the Cheshire lady! Got the plan but tbh it didn’t really work for Finn.
Can I ask what the similarities were? So curious!!

@ELW85 so the things that were basically identical across the two were:
Awake windows - these change constantly over the first year so be aware of them, as this feeds directly in to over-tiredness or just not being tired enough for sleep
Bedtimes - around 6:30/7 is the ideal and never later than 8
Baths should be cool! We bath at around 33/34 degrees and make it quick
Naps should be as consistent as you can while trying to get it nailed and once set still always try and have the first morning nap in the crib
Blackout/as dark a room as possible
White noise or just any noise really to block out the other sounds of the house
Sensory play - more than anything (I’ve found) to stimulate the brain enough for some sleep!! We always do some sensory at about 5pm.
A full baby will sleep better so offer plenty of milk during the day (mine was milk based as we started quite young!) and wind/help to wind after all feeds so they don’t have a windy tum when trying to settle

She told me not to think of the sleep regressions as regressions/going backwards but progressions, learning their new sleeping patterns. And then just try and stick to your awake windows in the day and bedtimes to stay on track!

It’s all worked really well for us. No two babies are the same - I can tell you that first hand!!! And its all so much trial and error. There were some things we tried that made bugger all difference, some things were just a complete waste of time!!
But sometimes I do think the fact it’s worked on both boys means there must be something to it??

@ELW85 thanks for that bud ❤️ all really interesting, but particularly the part about having to keep "retraining" as it were. Hoping those skills are still there, and will resurface! Couple of Qs if you don't mind 😂

• re linking day sleep at 5-7 months, does that mean cycles?? Because sometimes she'll do it (1.5 hrs) and other times she needs help as she wakes after 1 (45 mins).
• deffo happy to work on night first, I hadn't realised they're controlled by separate parts of the brain. I just though once they could self settle they could do so day or night.
• sleep routine: into bedroom, blackout blinds, white noise, sleep bag, hold/sway to her sleep song and, provided I've got the wake time right, she's usually out within a few minutes. Then we put into cot asleep. At night this is preceded by a bath and massage. So the issue isn't so much getting her to sleep or breaking feed to sleep habits, but getting her to stay asleep! Before the regression we were able to do the routine, then put her into the cot and she'd go to sleep herself.

@MrsEG oh that sounds incredible! I might look into one if this goes on much longer with no sign of improvement. do you mind sharing roughly how much it cost for a session? Hahaha bless your sister, I think I could do easily end up in that situation. Is she keen to do it differently with no. 2? On one hand I'd love to just go with the flow, but on the other, MAN ALIVE I need some sleep 😅

@MrsEG oooo so interesting about bath temps, think ours are too warm. And sensory play. Doing both of those changes today!

@MrsEG - that’s really interesting! The things I’m curious about are wake windows and sensory play.
So did they give you tips for wake windows like double last nap length or no longer than x for example or did they just say as soon as they yawn?
And I do sensory play with Finn before a bath but his legs go like the clappers so I’ve no idea if this is right or if I’m over stimulating him?
Sorry for pinging questions at you!!

@purplefig - any time! The thing with trying new things like sensory is that you (in my very humble opinion!) have to have a structure to it and figure out where it fits in to your routine. I say this because I tried a load of things in a kind of random approach hoping they’d work and of course it was really hit and miss because I was just inconsistent!

• yep this is linking day sleep cycles. The note they’re used to their environment the more they’ll do it but I understand it’s not nailed consistently until 5-7 months as developmental.
• I think the thing is because you’re putting her to sleep she’s waking up and not knowing how to get back to sleep potentially. So it’s that dreaded down while she’s awake and then encouraging her to get to sleep herself?

So Finn now gets swaddle white noise cuddles, put down with a dummy that he uses til calm then spits out and get himself to sleep. This is a blessing and a curse because if he wakes and he’s overtired sometimes he can’t self soothe and won’t have the dummy as he’s too upset! Is she just too upset being out down awake now? And are there distraction techniques you can try like lights etc?

It’s so hard to be fair; I genuinely thought Finn putting himself to sleep would mean no more night waking me but nope!

I’m working on naps now as I think the more he naps in the crib, the more used to his environment he’ll be so he’ll link his cycles better maybe...

@ELW85 re: wake windows, I find m is pretty on the money with the age appropriate guides. But I still watch her like a hawk for tired signs. Sure all babies are different, but I find by the stage she's yawning it's a bit too late. She tends to rub her eyes when she's starting to get tired, so I go by that.

Totally get you on the not adding too much in all at once. You just get desperate don't you?! 😂

It's just a strange one as sometimes she will link nap cycles, even if she's been put down asleep. We're working on putting her down "drowsy but awake", it's slow going. DH managed it the other day, so just need to be consistent I guess.

I miss being able to swaddle her, she's such a wriggler I think she wakes herself up half the time.

@purplefig - Finn is horrendous for wriggling too! He’s not rolled yet so I’m still swaddling but know I need to start weaning really.
It’s so frustrating when sometimes they do link their cycles and sometimes they don’t. Having one of those days right now and I feel like crying!

@ELW85 oh won't you join me? I've been crying on and off since 3am. Please, take a cup of tepid tea and try and eat a biscuit while the babies cry at you for a taste. It's quite a party.

@purplefig - this is why we need one huge mansion so we can cry together!! I’m comfort eating so putting on so much weight. Currently hate myself!

@ELW85 ooo that would be good! Oh man I hear you on the food front. And I'm eating so quick as well, as if anticipating a meltdown / wake up. Feeling especially rubbish as DH at work (normally WFH these days) and my NCT meet-up got cancelled. Feeling like a Billy no mates and an incompetent mother to boot 😂

@purplefig - THIS!! I devour food now to accommodate the little terrorist 😂
I’m also a billy. But you are my no means an incompetent mother. You’re amazing. This shit is HARD and I feel nobody gave us a full and intelligible briefing to make an informed decision. But I wouldn’t change him for the world.
If it helps, try to see everything as a phase?
Not sure if I told this group or not but I was reading a sleep study and over 50% of families were still feeding to sleep and sneaking into cots at 1 yr old and it made zero difference in night wakings. I know you’re not feeding to sleep, but interesting!