November 2012- Jingle Bells tantrums smell mummy needs some wine...

[Pikz]

Just to start us off..

Surely eliza

Eliza am vair impressed you can even do the Hokey Cokey whilst overdue

I think after having such a rough time first time round, you deserve a magical sleeping baby yw! Enjoy! It does give me hope that a future minipig might sleep, if not given various noxious things...

And well done to Eliza for hokey cokeying. V impressive indeed!

He sounds, jupiter , like a toddler :)

Honestly.

I do rewards but I also punish. Some things are unacceptable- hitting, biting etc. LO gets sent to think on that, then has to apologise. I know it is old fashioned, but I think if they shouldn't do it to their teachers/care workers, they must not do it to us either.

Am not talking about the odd tantrummy smack, I mean the aggressive stuff. LO gets put on the sofa, or in her bed, or in the corner (we don't have steps). She gets it very quickly.

DD1 never did. I still haven't worked her out tbh. Other than ignoring her when she gets difficult. Which is hard

I have started trying time outs but I think it might take a while before he understands. Saying sorry is a big sticking point. He absolutely refuses. We went through things for nearly 2 hours on Tuesday after the head butt. He kept crying and saying he wanted a cuddle. It was bloody awful but I didn't know whether to forget the apology and move on or keep trying to get it out of him. I don't want him to think it's ok. But I couldn't go on indefinitely. Eventually I got his alphabet jigsaw out, normally we say 's is for snake' but I asked what else 's' was for and he said it was for sorry. That was as close as I got to an apology.

When they ask for a cuddle at this age after being naughty I give it. As good as an apology.

At DD1's age I don't give in as easily as she asks for a hug then smirks an I got away with it.

That's really useful to know thank you. Thank goodness for the quiche.

I am another one who accepts cuddles as apologies of kind. I know others disagree with me but I feel an apology needs to be felt more than said so I listen for tone and watch body language. I mean with the wens at work. I despise thoughtlessly thrown out "sorry". It is much harder to feel sorry than to say it.

When p is very naughty I do a sort of time in as I think she would just run off otherwise. I basically sit her on my knee and k hold her tight while talking to her about what has happened. I don't ask her to apologise but I hold her quite firmly and she cannot get down unless she is call enough to listen. I ask if she understands. If she says yes then she gets down. Typically she follows this with an apology. However - she is little and not hugely physical yet so this might not work for much longer

I give F my stern face (like this ) when she is naughty. And by naughty, I mean hitting, snatching or shouting overly rudely (a grim habit she has acquired lately ). And she givrs me puppy dog eyes and a quivery lip. And I tell her "that was rude/naughty - we don't do ..." and then we stare at each other for ages, and I try not to crack and laugh, and then she says sorry, and I ask if she wants a cuddle, and she says yes. And she cuddles and says "no hit/shout mummy". It hasn't failed. Yet...

Yep I do cuddles for E here too. Sometimes when she has been told off she will cry lots and end up sobbing saying cuddle me mummy. I can't not. When she's stopped crying I will tell her what upset me about whatever she did that was naughty and then move on. And if it's something nasty towards her sister I do ask her to cuddle or kiss her too and she does. Whereas she doesn't always say sorry.

I deal with DD1 differently. She knows what's acceptable and what isn't so she is made to say sorry and if she doesn't do it properly (ie in that stroppy manner that they use) then she is sent to her room/stairs/wherever is appropriate at the time and is told to think about her behaviour and come and say sorry when she means it. She'll then get a cuddle if necessary but most times she's sorted herself out so is not required.

It's a bit of a minefield jj and different kids respond to different approaches. But don't worry too much at this stage about what is deemed to be giving in. They are still learning about what is acceptable and it's in their nature to push the boundaries. Unfortunately they will continue to do that for quite sometime!

The stern face we used to do when it first started months ago but sadly he just thinks it's funny now. I used to do sitting-on-knee time outs but he is so strong these days. I generally put him on the floor, then once he has calmed we have a chat about things.

I always thought I should try and get the word sorry out of him but it's good to know others think a cuddle is good too as long as it's meant. I think the trouble with him is that he sees any reaction as good, so he rarely seems to be at all contrite. The black eye incident does seem to have made a slight impact though. Not just on my cheekbone.

I remember at primary school being made to say sorry and shake hands for things I truly believed to be unfair. Toddlers have a strong sense of justice and sometimes they believe that they are right. They are not, usually, but letting them hug/tantrum it out is often more effective than forcing apologetic words out of them. As eliza says, tis a minefield.

Evening all :) Today has been a mind bending frustrating day but we're almost at the end of it so i'm happy! the dog appears to be going backwards with his toilet training and e has been hard work indeed. Dp took him out earlier to feed the ducks and see the trains though and he thoroughly enjoyed that :)

bplp I do take E out some of the time when pup needs to go out, but atm it's literally every half an hour or so, and by the time I get e's stuff on he's already widdled in the house... the dog that is...

The other dogs still need to be walked so E can come then rather than go out each time with the pup I think - or a bit of both. Planning on taking e to the park tomorrow, or one of us will, and perhaps for a hot chocolate at nans.

bless you Eliza you sound very fed up, fingers crossed baby makes an appearance soon!

awww pass how adorable!!

bless you msj if you're failing then i'm really screwing up! . I echo what everyone else has said - you're certainly not alone, I find e is a bit like a chimpanzee or something - quite literally. He's unpredictable, with varying levels of violence, plenty of naughtyness but also his sweet side that means you often mistake him for a human... I am aware I am comparing my son to a monkey, but it gets my point across I hope!! What I mean is that although alot of the time e is lovely, like a pet chimp might be (bear with me) he sometimes lashes out, or does things purely for a reaction. Today it is feed the sofa cushions to the dog. Usually it is throw toys down the stairs. I hate that one. I am going to start time outs i think as nothing else i have tried so far works with him. I do cuddle though when he's done something and then I tell him off, he will cry or be upset and then ask for a love. I do reiterate that what he did wasn't nice/was naughty or whatever else and it's easier to tell him when he's calm and cuddling me than in the middle of his screeching bit! sorry, this has turned into quite the ramble! I don't force a sorry either atm and go on behaviour - he accidentally twatted my baby sister with a train the other day and immediately went to her saying oh no, love, love. He didn't say sorry but when I said dsis e is sorry for that he said sorry, i'm sorry, love.

sounds like something worth enjoying yw, what bliss!

can I come too Grace, sounds gorgeous! Something lemony does sound nice actually, think msj suggested it. I would love to do chicken and chorizo stew one day, dp and e would love it (me too!)

wow eliza go you!! kids parties when overdue - i would be crying into my pillow i think!

I want a curry. Again. Surprise surprise!!!

I think though that with all the crap on MN and OUTRAGE at other people's difficult toddlers it is easy to forget that toddlers ARE violent. Some more than others. But a certain amount of violence is completely normal. Yes, it has to be dealt with, but it is a very normal phase. And you can be as strict and traditional or as huggyhippy attachment parenting as you like, but if your toddler expresses him or herself through violence then it isn't you. It's just how they deal with frustration and anger.

And it doesn't mean they will be a violent adult, or teen, or even 3 or 4 or 8 year old.

Wow, I'm really glad I shared this now. I thought you were all going to say it sounded like there was something wrong with him. I'm not glad that others are dealing with the same shit but it's reassuring all the same. Thanks again.

Just watching Skyfall on tv, I saw this at baby cinema with L when he was a few months old. Maybe that's where he got some of his ideas. I'd better learn to mix a good martini.

Jupiter PR is right they are violent.

You are doing an amazing job, we all are.

I call L a small cute dictator

Eliza I think you're milking it now

This Sunday's peaceful breakfast is poached egg on avocado on toast with a steaming cafetière of coffee.

Oooh v healthy Grace. Am having a full English cooked for me by our friends

Tomorrow might be the day for a healthy brekkie!

We had a full English too :) it wasn't v peaceful as DD1 wokein the night and woke LO up too. So we are all a bit grumpy today.

Full English... Mmmmmm.

Now onto roast beef dinner with all the trimmings. Nom!

Starving here. Off to cook roast pork dinner

Have you popped yet bp?

Have you popped yet eliza ?

Nope. Was going to have roasted duck legs today but went to prezzo for lunch and am still quite stuffed so will have that tomorrow instead.

Or NHS toast maybe Eliza?